svboy Senior Member Joined: 27 Aug 2004 Posts: 27 Location: perth Expertise: Professional
Espresso: own none access to plenty
Posted Thu May 4, 2006, 7:09am Subject: Barista comps. suck!
Well they don't really suck,but they certainly have a lot of shortcomings.Anyone who has had a good look over the judges criteria will recognise that most "lead user" barista's have evolved significantly since these guidelines were created.Does the geek community still believe in 20-30 mls in 20-30 seconds?Should we be designing blends for their ability to create persistent crema or their taste in the cup?(read Tim Wendleboe's excellent article for his perspective) My respect for the competitors is in no way diminished-they do am amazing job.I'm just saying maybe we need to look at how the comps. are judged and do they really reflect what's happening out there at the coalface?
Firstly during the Perth comp I don't think many of the judges worried too much about the volume, eg I don't recall any of the judges measuring a shot volume.
In terms of shot timing, the idea behind this is that some sort of timing band is defined as I'm sure you will agree the opposite aint pretty. For example, when you see the same barista during pulling shots (without changing the grinder settings) that range from 11 to 46 seconds this is a pretty good sign that the barista is not on top of their game. Tracking these long and short shots in the comp and tasting these shots consistently confirmed my initial suspicions. If baristas pulled consistent close to god shot (CTGS) between 15 - 20 seconds (very unlikley) or 30 - 35 seconds (more likely) I would be more sympathetic. Maybe the volume/timing criteria should be, "pulls constant volume shots within 10 seconds of each other"? However, I would not like to have to judge under this criteria.
Anyway, I would say that the timing restriction in comps is a minor aspect of getting a CTGS.
Yes the criteria do have issues but remember these have been developed across a wide range of nations and cultural interpretations - something I have experience with this sort of thing and it is even tougher than judging. Once the rules are cast, comp baristas have to work with them otherwise they won't have a chance of getting to the top. There is nothing to say the rules may not change in the future but like any organization, change is hopefully carefully considered.
All said and done I have a lot of respect for pro baristas who can consistently make good coffee amongst the din of a cafe and pushy customers and smart arse coffee geeks (like me) telling them how to do their business!
And BTW I'm sure a vigorous discussion about this on forums like this will be viewed as highly desirable by the barista comp organizers.
Hey Shaughan and Bob, I agree with both of you. Certainly the judging criteria is too narrow and limits creativity, adaption and indeed perfection. I think there does have to be certain guidelines for judges to follow but persistence of crema in my opinion is not one of these. As Schomer himself says, the best espresso crema is extremely fragile in its nature and dissapears quickly. Does this mean we give it a zero? For purity and quality's sake I believe espressos (and other drinks also) should be able to be served two at a time rather than leave two on the bench for three minutes while waiting for two more. I would never consider leaving espressos for a couple of minutes at my bar. At the end of the day surely taste in the cup is the one overriding principle by which we must judge. I'm all for criteria being re-evaluated.
Its funny that you say this. Extraction time for guildlines will have to change in the future. With machines becoming so temperture stable and also with the follow rate slowing down so much, a 30 second extraction is not long enough. I know i get best results with a 34 second extraction. Anything around 26 taste a little flat. The guys that organise these events really put in so much effort and the politics is just crazy. Barista comps really do push the boundaries and they really show skills with baristi using blends they dont really like, just to fit in. So that means coffee must be over 2 weeks old and with a little robusta. Also you see the way people judge a person, one will say extraction to slow and the other judge say too fast. Im sure if you piss off one of the judges you are already stuffed! At times i find judges always making opinions outside the arena. They cant even sit down and enjoy a coffee at your cafe because they are too busy judging your coffee. Is this what it is all about? As a cafe owner i find it a little insulting with people coming into my cafe and ordering coffee and not even drinking it, but just marking it. Then not even paying for it. I've heard of some of the organisation crew kicking off baristi in the cafe because they dont like what they are doing. Justin metcalf, is probably one of my favourite guys. His focus on coffee is what its all about. As long as he is there my faith in the comps will always be true. He cuts the B.S and it is what it is. He sees the crap, but looks at the bigger picture. I look at his face before the comps and he really does his head in. I know as a cafe owner once the competitions are on its silly season even for us. On another good note with the baristi comp. You look at people like David Makin and you see how happy he is. He is so proud and the guys have worked damn hard to win. Forget about all the crap and its all worth while, he is proud to represent Australia and good luck to him, because i really want to see him do well. Watching David at work he has the right focus and he's not too geeky which really works. He is one of those players that gets into a zone and that i respect.
While I agree that yes, the top level competitors and baristas in the country have moved to a point where their skills and techniques are being restricted than aided by these rules and guidlines, I would still argue that you're talking about 2% or less of the barista community. One of the primary roles of AASCA, acted out through the barista competitions, is to "Create and maintain espresso and coffee making standards for the Australasian region.." and to "To endorse quality work practices amongst those involved in the processing, distribution consumption and education of specialty coffee". I think that one of the benifits of the rules as they stand is that they force the majority of baristas even thinking of competing to review their work practices - the criteria that the WBC judges by are a higher standard than the majority of barista skill in Australia and is probably doing more benifit than harm.
On the second note there - barista comps aren't really aimed at the geek community - as I said before, one of the roles of these comps is to help to educate and raise coffee standards in Australia, not to conform to the extremes of the geek community which are often based outside of the commercial arena.
In regards to the idea of crema dissapation and its importance, I guess its a case of conforming to the majority viewpoint (in specialty coffee). The majority of industry members place a pretty high significance on the appearance and characteristics of coffees crema. While I personally am not convinced as to its importance either way, I guess that the common understanding held by judges needs to be disproven first. This viewpoint is probably an (over?)reaction to the move from stale imported coffee to freshly roasted: stale coffee can immediately be identified by its lack of crema at any stage of the extraction process.
In saying all this, I'd love to see competitors, judges and everyone else questioning things (and offering valid alternatives) in order to produce a better competition to help develop this country's coffee industry. An understanding of the motivations behind parts of the competition would probably help to answer some questions.
One thing that I definitely want to see more of in all of our competitions though is people having FUN!! Sure, we're all nervous and there are a range of things at stake but in the end, it's a competition and there can only be one winner - relax, enjoy the process and the people involved!
Barista comps are great for our cafe industry! They are designed to instill passion and kudos into the workplace for the baristi.
The industry still does not really get the importance of these competitions. I believe.
Most cafes still don't have barista's they have cafe workers who do a bit of everything, making coffee, cooking, cleaning spilt milkshakes off the floor.
Its hard to get your head around perfect coffee unless you have been dedicated to the role as a barista and I believe 80% of cafe workers are still muliti skilling in other area's other than coffee service. Dedication means passion! Cafe owners still dont get the joke, not realizing that great coffee can drive a businesses profitability. This is reflected directly in why you only see small followings at barista competitions.
Full cheers goes to all who have been involved in this years barista comps. The individuals (including the geeks) need to be patted on the back for their efforts. I have run comps myself and know the cost directly and indirectly on resources like time and money. It was not the association that should just recieve the recognition it is the individuals from all the states and teritories.
I enjoyed seeing new blood out there having a go this year, this is the only way they will get a little recognition for their choosen trade.
The Hospitality industry in Australia creates around 10 billion dollars for the economy. look at other smaller industry they would put their champions on huge pedestals and would reward them publically and financially.
something to think about!
Congrats to David, I won $10 bucks on you mate! I might put $100 bucks on you for the world tittle.
Also you see the way people judge a person, one will say extraction to slow and the other judge say too fast. Im sure if you piss off one of the judges you are already stuffed!
I think you are referring to the technical judges...? According to the WBC rules the extraction is either within 20-30 seconds or it isn't, it's a yes no answer.
While there is always the possibility of bias, I doubt the technical judge gets "pissed off" because they are too involved in the assessment process (speaking from experience as a tech judge at the 2006 WABC).
Yes, but surely it is better to receive espresso earlier than later. I definitely think restricting all coffees to be served at the same time is crazy. Why do we do this? Is it because in the food service industry we must bring all plates of food (and coffee) to the table at the same time? Actually you will find the reverse is true, at restaurants pushing the boundaries they serve at different times to ensure quality (go to Jackson's restaurant) whereas at Sizzler they ensure that all your food comes at once.
BenB Said:
While I agree that yes, the top level competitors and baristas in the country have moved to a point where their skills and techniques are being restricted than aided by these rules and guidlines, I would still argue that you're talking about 2% or less of the barista community.
2% of the barista community but 100% of the barista COMPETITION community (the exact people we are trying to evaulate). So those guidelines are restricting the exact people who are trying push the envelope for the rest of the commercial barista community.
BenB Said:
On the second note there - barista comps aren't really aimed at the geek community - as I said before, one of the roles of these comps is to help to educate and raise coffee standards in Australia, not to conform to the extremes of the geek community which are often based outside of the commercial arena.
Barista comps aren't really aimed at the geek community? Don't agree at all. Every elite coffee performer is absolutely into geekdom - these guys are thinking about every possible geek related idea to gain an edge, and certainly are doing all the geek related tweaks - And MUCH MORE!!! Barista comps are very loosely linked to the commercial area. They are not commercial reality at all. The baristas make coffees in comps entirely differently from the commercial world and always will (totally different audience).
In my experience (as well as Schomers) I have found a link between quick crema dissipation and quality of the espresso beverage. The most fragile crema produces the best espresso and the robusta laden crema that remains for hours tastes as you would expect.
Sorry Benny, not trying to be argumentative just have a totally different view.
AndyL Senior Member Joined: 31 Dec 2003 Posts: 1,337 Location: australia Expertise: Pro Barista
Espresso: 2 Synesso,1957 urania lever Grinder: 2 Robur E, Robur, K10 Vac Pot: Hario Roaster: 5kg Renegade
Posted Sat May 6, 2006, 3:18am Subject: Re: Barista comps. suck!
GRB Said:
I think you are referring to the technical judges...? According to the WBC rules the extraction is either within 20-30 seconds or it isn't, it's a yes no answer.
While there is always the possibility of bias, I doubt the technical judge gets "pissed off" because they are too involved in the assessment process (speaking from experience as a tech judge at the 2006 WABC).
svboy Senior Member Joined: 27 Aug 2004 Posts: 27 Location: perth Expertise: Professional
Espresso: own none access to plenty
Posted Sat May 6, 2006, 5:16am Subject: Re: Barista comps. suck!
Hi chaps! To be honest my post was a little mischievous.I was hoping to create a little controversy.It's certainly gone a little quiet in here since the heady days of Corey v Greg part 1. I think we all dream of the day when we can get reliably excellent coffee in more than a handful of places in each state.If barista comps. more accurately reflect current best practise i think they can push standards up and drag the industry forward,hopefully quite effectively. I hope the guys running our best cafes(you know who you are!) ensure that their views are heard by the good folk at aasca.
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