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BenB
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Joined: 17 Jun 2004
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Posted Sat Feb 18, 2006, 6:45am
Subject: Re: My COFFEE
 

pstam Said:

I do not understand your logic.


Everyone is telling their understanding here, so do I.

When you say something, I may tell my comment about it.  When I say something, anyone can and did the samething.  Why should I have to stop talking, and you and others can continue?

Are you different from me in some sense???

Posted February 17, 2006 link

I think, Peter, that one of the problems comes from you stating your understanding and opinions as fact and also seeming to suggest that some of the understanding and techniques others describe is just plain wrong. But then again, you are far from being the only one here to do that...
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pstam
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pstam
Joined: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 2,348
Location: Beijing
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Posted Sat Feb 18, 2006, 8:38am
Subject: Re: My COFFEE
 

BenB Said:

I think, Peter, that one of the problems comes from you stating your understanding and opinions as fact and also seeming to suggest that some of the understanding and techniques others describe is just plain wrong. But then again, you are far from being the only one here to do that...

Posted February 18, 2006 link


Sorry, I am not sure if I can fully understand the problem described here.  But I would try to explain according to what I can understand.

If I believe that "some of the understanding and techniques others describe is just plain wrong", and point it out, I was going to help them.  That is my understanding.  They are free to consider it or not.  It is just like what other told me my nistake about the "staled" beans.  I do not have to be angry with it, but I decide to consider it or not.  Did I told someone not to talk to me any more?

It is like what I did to the coffee shops where they have terrible coffee and would ask about my opinion for their coffee.  I tell them the trueth, as I can understand, and they decide to accept it or not.  For, I idd the right things, and even if they do not accept, it is their fault if anything wrong with their shops.  If I did not tell, I could be sorry after they failed to run their business because I did not offer the right advise.

Anyway, I do not have to say anything if people here would not hear it.  I really do not enjoy it.

 
Peter in Beijing
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-------------------
I am looking for the way and the place to extend our trainning courses.
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espressionist
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espressionist
Joined: 17 Jan 2004
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Location: Edmonton
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Posted Sat Feb 18, 2006, 11:19am
Subject: Re: My COFFEE
 

Good morining Peter :


pstam Said:

Why should I have to stop talking, and you and others can continue?

Posted February 17, 2006 link

I think you missed my point - my fault, so let me be clear -

espressionist Said:

I, for one, am glad you do post here as I have learned alot from you about the Chinese culture and the state of Chinese espresso

Posted February 17, 2006 link

My question to you was to help me understand what YOU gain from our discussions - I certainly did not ask you to leave.  

It's like this :

Coffeegeek Members :
  • talk about new ideas in the world of espresso
  • run to our machines to try these ideas
  • come back to coffeegeek to discuss the results
  • take advise from top professionals
  • search out top cafes and try their espresso
  • experiment with ALL coffees (mail order, store bought, Italian, home roasted)

Pstam :
  • understands Italian espresso to have set the standard
  • stays with that understanding despite the pleas from Coffeegeek to try other methods and beans
  • continues to try to convince Coffeegeek that he is correct


pstam Said:

Are you different from me in some sense???

Posted February 17, 2006 link

The funny thing is, you and I are in similar positions.  

I live in a city that has not yet discovered great espresso.  We are a town that relies on Starbucks and (shudder) Tim Hortons to set the standard on coffee preparation.  I have no way to compare my home espresso with a professional standard in this city.  That is why I am overjoyed to belong to this community.  I have access to the absolute best in the coffee world without having to leave my house.  The best advice(professional and amatuer), the best reviews, the best equipment(actually I am lucky to have local access to great equipment), and the best beans (mail order and some locally roasted).  

I am also fortunate that I have opportunity to travel to Vancouver once or twice a year and I get to sample some of the great cafe's in that city (JJBean, Elysian Room, Artigiano's and this year I get to add Wicked Cafe and possibly Prado to my list).

I guess my point is that nothing beats experimentation and trying new things. It doesn't always work, but when it does the sky's open and the sun shines down!

Also, in all the discussions you have been involved in over the last few months it was only yesterday that I discovered you use the sealed cannisters.  I was always under the impression that you used bagged coffee.  You see, I learned something.

Peter I apologize for my lack of clarity in my earlier posts.  

Geoff

 
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kaanage
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Posted Sun Feb 19, 2006, 4:01pm
Subject: Re: My COFFEE
 

stinkyjones Said:

Once we've established the baseline, perhaps we can create a new thread with it called "Communicating with pstam/Peter in Beijing", and then maybe we can convice the mods to "sticky" it at the top of every forum as a reference.

Posted February 16, 2006 link

As anyone who has been trying to follow this thread can see, nailing Peter down on his precise attitudes/preconceptions/etc is almost impossible. I did try in another thread a while back but gave up as his replies are just too obtuse to draw solid conclusions from. I'm now tempted to think he is using the language barrier as a deliberate ploy to prevent people from being able to create a definitive assessment of his attitudes since he somehow twists his replies to any questions into "what do you mean?"

Why don't we just create this "Communicating with pstam/Peter in Beijing" thread anyway and just speculate amongst ourselves on his motives and attitudes? Your original assessement of him plus the one by espressionist would be a good start. And if the mods could link it to his signature, then confused 1st timers could jump to it and realise "oh, he belives a, b and c so I can ignore comments x, y and z - now is there anything else in the post to look at?"

Iron Barista was going to visit Peter's cafe when he visited Beijing and I was hoping a report from him would put all of Peter's comments in perspective. Sadly, his trip did not eventuate. I would dearly love someone to be able to visit his cafe sometime as just about every thread he chooses to participate in ends up like this one.

 
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pstam
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pstam
Joined: 27 Jan 2004
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Posted Sun Feb 19, 2006, 7:48pm
Subject: Re: My COFFEE
 

espressionist Said:

I think you missed my point - my fault, so let me be clear -

Posted February 18, 2006 link


You probably know that, I can only try to understand the meaning of a paragraph of English words, but very hardly or even never understand or feel its mood or humour in it.  What I learnt my English was mostly for the study of science and technologies.  I never read a story or a novel in English.

As you may know, I learnt my English in China and Italy for my study only, but no experience of social life in an English speaking country.  That is a pitty.


espressionist Said:

My question to you was to help me understand what YOU gain from our discussions - I certainly did not ask you to leave.  

Posted February 18, 2006 link


As one example of what I learnt from this forum, it should be the "Gold Rule", brewing and timing.  But, for me, it is never a rule, rather a reference to the setting of the grinders and the machines.

As everyone should know, there is possibilities to have an espresso, which follows exactly this rule but really not drinkable.  At most, I may consider it as a necessary condition, but not a sufficient condition, scientifically.

If someone tell me that looking at the coffee, which have very nice colour and follow the "gold rule" exactly, it must be a great shot.  I hope, but I am really not so sure about it.  In fact, I had so many experience of bad shot, which had nice colour and right timing.

I do not know if you agree with me about this or not.


espressionist Said:

It's like this :

Coffeegeek Members :
talk about new ideas in the world of espresso
run to our machines to try these ideas
come back to coffeegeek to discuss the results
take advise from top professionals
search out top cafes and try their espresso
experiment with ALL coffees (mail order, store bought, Italian, home roasted)

Pstam :
understands Italian espresso to have set the standard
stays with that understanding despite the pleas from Coffeegeek to try other methods and beans
continues to try to convince Coffeegeek that he is correct

Posted February 18, 2006 link


This is ... this is ...

In some sense, you are right about this.

What you said about the "Coffeegeek Members" is a general way and situation.  What you said about "ME" is the typical impression about me.

Why I said,

understands Italian espresso to have set the standard

is what I understood, and I am quite suer and confident about it.  But, eventually it is my own understanding.  Anyone who do not agree with it can tell their understanding, and why.  In fact, I am really interesting to discuss such a topic.

Why I

stays with that understanding despite the pleas from Coffeegeek to try other methods and beans

I tried.  As many as I can get, I tried them.  Even at the very beginning of our work, I collected almost any beans I can get and tried them.  There are also many people who gave their samples of beans to me, and asked me to taste.  I did.

As many of you can remember, I really said that I would not try more of those blends and beans.  Why?  Simply because I did.  Certainly it does not mean that I would close my eyes, and tell a virtual story only.

On the other hand, after one tried many many samples and tests, one has to draw some idea from it, so that one do not have to spend their whole life to practise.  We are a company and would make the business going.  We have to get the result as soon as possible, so that we can make a better business, for our partners and clients.


espressionist Said:

take advise from top professionals

Posted February 18, 2006 link


Probably, this is what different from me.

Are there any "top professionals", or "top experts" about coffee?  I really doubt.

My way of learning is to hear first, and then think about it.  If I can recognized that it really works, I must take it as my understanding.  If it is not reasonable, I have to think about why, and try to find out where the problem is from.  If I can find it, I can be sure that it may be wrong.  And then I have to rebuild the structure for my own theory.

Specially for the coffee industry, I recognized that it is still not well understood yet, and therefore there is no "experts" at all, me neither.  I have to go further and further continuously.  Whenever I stop going, I will be behind soon.


I hope that this can explain better.

 
Peter in Beijing
-------------------
http://www.kaffa.cn/
-------------------
I am looking for the way and the place to extend our trainning courses.
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gime2much
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Posted Sun Feb 19, 2006, 11:03pm
Subject: Re: My COFFEE
 

Yeah...Its Led ....just like i speculated eariler on...

 Dom mentioned those damn billygoats somewhere.....

 We know who guards bridges....right????????


Dan

 
Dan Brewer
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BenB
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Joined: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 466
Location: Perth, Australia
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: 2 x 2grp LM
Grinder: 2 Swifts, Mazzer Robur
Posted Mon Feb 20, 2006, 5:40am
Subject: Re: My COFFEE
 

Peter, I'd just like to thank you for your patience and willingness to talk.

Cheers,
Ben
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pstam
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pstam
Joined: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 2,348
Location: Beijing
Expertise: Professional

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Grinder: MAZZER
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Posted Mon Feb 20, 2006, 6:38am
Subject: Re: My COFFEE
 

Thank you, Ben, for your patient to read my English.

 
Peter in Beijing
-------------------
http://www.kaffa.cn/
-------------------
I am looking for the way and the place to extend our trainning courses.
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pstam
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pstam
Joined: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 2,348
Location: Beijing
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Espresso: ECM, SAN MARCO, EURO 2000
Grinder: MAZZER
Vac Pot: YES
Drip: YES
Roaster: YES, HOME STYLE
Posted Tue May 8, 2012, 2:58am
Subject: Re: My COFFEE
 

Many years past, and someone reminded me to read this thread again.

The mentioned cafes chain is called SPR, and it's got failed after these years even if they were growing fasted than *$s, around 2004-2006.  But now, mostly due to their awful coffee drinks, they are mostly not mentioned again in the Chinese espresso industry.  By this, I meant that they had been getting closed.  Only some member cafes are running by themselves without any support from SPR.

The market dropped them.

 
Peter in Beijing
-------------------
http://www.kaffa.cn/
-------------------
I am looking for the way and the place to extend our trainning courses.
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pstam
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pstam
Joined: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 2,348
Location: Beijing
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Espresso: ECM, SAN MARCO, EURO 2000
Grinder: MAZZER
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Posted Sat Mar 2, 2013, 9:54am
Subject: Re: My COFFEE
 

Is anyone who can help me to find out and to explain what in the following are rude or insulting,

All right.

How many coffee shops in China have I visited, and tasted?

Probably you cannot imagine, I am in the centre of the Chinese coffee industy, and know all so-called important people in the coffee industry in China.  If anything interesting, I would be informed, also by many of my students.  Anything special?  I surely can know.

About Zhang, he was trained by the people who were trained by a young guy whom I know five years ago.  This is what I know and also, for sure, how they train them.

If you judge the quality of the espresso and the freshness of the beans by its crema, I have two questions for it.

One, they have the beans roasted in the States, and how you see its freshness?

Two, If you cannot make the espresso with rich crema from the stale beans, it must not mean that it cannot be done.

Let me tell you a trueth.  We made our so good business, as described in other threads, with the beans aged much longer than you can imagine.  Why? The espresso is simply good.

Why do I tell you this?  Because we have the beans very fresh now, it is only one month or more aged.  Can you see something different from other's opinion?  That is my opinion.  So, I would not talk too much about ours opinion.

OK, I do not think I need explain anything about it.  It is not a secret, but nobody want to know it.  That is OK, not bad for me anyway.

What kind of help he want, and what kind of help you offer to him?  Where are they?

You are not thinking and analyzing the matters, but show your gentle to others.  Here is not for that.  We are researching into the deep and deep of the matters.  When I say somehting, you can tell where was wrong and why, but not to say NO only.  We have to know your reason and evidence.

If you are a Chinese, I can understand what you said, and you know what I have to say to you.

How do you explain why I know what you are talking about, but you do not know mine?  I know, I tried, and so I know the result.  Why I do not want to try everything?  I can guess the result, and almost never out of my idea.  Like this time in HOng Kong and Shenzhen.

Well, if no discussion is needed, we do not do it.

Yes, it seems that you are quite right.

In my understanding, I do not want to say or put anyone down, but just tell our understanding.  In any case, our understanding is our understanding.  Nobody is forced to accept it, neither hurted.  But many people seemed to be.

If I say that the espresso of a coffee shop is not good as I tasted, other people can make their own comments.  They do not have to close my mouth, like I do not try to close their mouth.

If the coffee is good, clients like it.  What you say, neither I say make no sense.  Is that right?

If I feel that the espresso is not good, what should I say?  It is great?  It is wonderful?  Then?

I did it.  More than four years ago, when I visited some coffee shops and tasted their espresso, I would not say some bad words but tell the problem very gently if I found their espresso bad.  In this way, they never recognize the problem, at least be warned to improve it.  In stead, they believe that it was quite OK and they do not have to do anything to inprove it.  So, they closed their coffee shop after half or one year.  The most short life time was three months, and two of his coffee shops was closed.

Is that what I should do, or other people do?

Althouth your questions are all based on your understanding, I shall try to explain some of them.

1) I never say that the understanding against mine is wrong, but I said that I know your understanding and it might be wrong, as I understood.  You never explain why you are right and I might be wrong, but only to say that I am rude.

The guy I mensioned was not trained by us, otherwise he will not behave like now.  What you do not know is that the guy whom I mensioned was the chief trainee of the SPR coffee and years ago he came back to work for sending the pure water to their clients, and the training of SPR was made by his students, I guess and should be right.

Why???  For me, it is quite easy to understand but maybe hard for you.  In fact, their managers must believe that they can do that by themselves, they do not need that guy any more because it is so easy to make coffee, specially for the espresso.

In this case, how will you guess the result of their training???

For the following five years, we did learnt a lot.  For example, the so-called "golden-rule", which for me is only a reference, not a rule.

2) I have no right, like you and all others, to judge others.  But everyone, including me, have the right to tell our own understanding to others.  In fact, I get nothing by saying this except to help others.  If you do not like it nor accept them, that is your choice and what you call it.

About my comments of arabica beans, it is also one of my understanding.  If you like, you can take it as a reference.  It can benefit me nothing, here at least.  Nobody pay me anything here.

Trying others, I did.  Many people sent me their samples, and I tried.  Every single time, it is always ...... not a single one out of my understanding.  Even so, it does not mean that I can forget others.  But one has to find out the reason.  Otherswise, one has to try every single one in the world, from every corners.  But surely that is not possible.  So, if yopu know the reason, you know what you can expect, what not.

Like Mr. Newton, he tried only with apple, not peach again, not orange again, not even a big iron ball again to his head.  He did not have to kill himself to prove a fact.  He had to do the following work.

3) I do not think I am blind.  My eye are always open, but only look at the important things.  In my college, I used to hear what professor said and is important.  Never everything because I do not have enough time to hear everything.

Whenever I see or hear something, even if I do not believe it, I have to think why it is wrong carefully.  Only when I have definite evidence to show that it is wrong, I can only be feel better and stop thinking of it.  Also take the example of the "golden-rule", I can easily to find a evidence against it.  But after a long time of thinking of it, finally I recognize that it can be a reference, but not a judging rule.

I can tell you a secret.  When I discussing with you and telling my understanding to you, I may draw any possible reasonable understanding from your words.  If it is not, I forget it.  But if yes, I take it.  Never miss it.  That is also a way of learning.

It is my experience that learning most from discussing, or even from dispute.  Only very few from thinking in my mind and talking to my self.

I do not hope that it will offend any of you, I hope.

That is me.


 
Peter in Beijing
-------------------
http://www.kaffa.cn/
-------------------
I am looking for the way and the place to extend our trainning courses.
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