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Discussions > Regional > Australasia > My COFFEE  
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pstam
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pstam
Joined: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 2,349
Location: Beijing
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Espresso: ECM, SAN MARCO, EURO 2000
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Posted Thu Feb 2, 2006, 1:32pm
Subject: Re: My COFFEE
 

kaanage Said:

It does indeed get that way. Check this thread. murkycoffee, JonR10 and Paul Pratt have all reached a level of frustration I have not sighted in any of their posts to others. And neonphyter, AndyL and I are all Chinese aussies (and murkycoffee is a Chinese american, I believe) so the confusion is not a cultural one.

Posted January 26, 2006 link


The point is not the difference between different culture, but most important is that we have different understanding in many respects and rules from others, even the most of the people here, or most of the world industry.

From the very beginning, I said this because I would exchange my understanding with others.

 
Peter in Beijing
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I am looking for the way and the place to extend our trainning courses.
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pstam
Senior Member
pstam
Joined: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 2,349
Location: Beijing
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: ECM, SAN MARCO, EURO 2000
Grinder: MAZZER
Vac Pot: YES
Drip: YES
Roaster: YES, HOME STYLE
Posted Thu Feb 2, 2006, 2:15pm
Subject: Re: My COFFEE
 

CK Said:

I think Peter from Bejing does know about making coffee but sounds like he hasnt been exposed to alot of different coffees especially fresh.
when i read that he calls arabica "coffee thin and sour".. he doesnt mean"'sour' as such.. but hes talking about acidity and confusing it with sour..

Posted January 29, 2006 link

You are right.  Even now, I do not know the difference between sour and acidity.  From the dictionary, I cannot see it, but I guess that "sour" comes from bad food, while "acidity" is a normal taste from food.  Is that right?


CK Said:

Because Mollinari certainly doesnt have any of that.. its a dark roasted probably 25% robusta blend.. and the reason why it has a high robusta content is its not fresh... and it needs the robusta to crema up.

Posted January 29, 2006 link

This is what I do not agree.  You can read this article, "Robusta's Rehab"


CK Said:

Now what youre getting is an old coffee designed by people who have been rpasting the same thing for 50 years .. and its not about excellence its about branding and signature blending.
Itrs roasted heavy so any of the defects from the cheap beans are roasted out of the coffee... (If you look at what Italy basically imports its Brasil Santos some Centrals and a heap of robusta)...

Posted January 29, 2006 link

Their roast is not very heavy.  North Italian styled.

I tried many fresh beans, single origin and 100% arabica because from the local roasters, you can probably get only arabica or arabica blend beans, and very fresh at least if I want.


CK Said:

Have you ever tasted a freshly roasted Kenyan Estate>??
Or an Ethiopian ... or a Sigri.. a Sulawesi.. or Sumatra.... maybe a Cuban???

Posted January 29, 2006 link

Some of them.  A friend of mine came back from Germany with a ton of green beans, from different origins.  All are high quality beans.  She joined a German Franchised coffee shop, and learn how to roast, not to brewing because they use super auto machines.


CK Said:

There is a whole world of coffee out there.. open your mind to it.. or youll get overtaken by those that will open their minds..

Confuscious didnt say it.. but "Man who only looks in rear vision mirror and not windscreen has crash"

Dont look at what espresso was doing 30 years ago when it was the domain of only Italy.. because alot has changed...!!!

Posted January 29, 2006 link

If someone pay me to do this work, or even from the government, I might close my eyes and do what I like to do.  But we are a private company, we are not rich men, so we must be very careful about what we are doing and what we can do in future.

If we close our eyes, we are going to be killed very soon.


CK Said:

The pther thing ill probably say is knowing China.. and coffee.. because im a professional coffee roaster with somne experience out there.. Why you like the robusta taste and not interested in cupping flavours..i mean REAL flavours from REAL high grade freshly roasted coffees.. is you probably smoke.. and your taste spuds have not been developed for the subtleties of what you call "sour" and most of us call " acid.. or brightness"...

Posted January 29, 2006 link

If you have customers or even distributors in Beijing, we can contact them and get some of your beans to taste.  Don't worry, the result will be reported to you directly from your distributor if they are in Beijing.

acid.. or brightness, are they the same?  in the language respect, or chemistry?  If you have so many "pre- or under-" defined concepts, I really cannot join this talk.

 
Peter in Beijing
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I am looking for the way and the place to extend our trainning courses.
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Paul_Pratt
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Paul_Pratt
Joined: 2 Sep 2002
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Espresso: Marzocco SMAL + GS
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Posted Thu Feb 2, 2006, 5:59pm
Subject: Re: My COFFEE
 

pstam Said:

I tried many fresh beans, single origin and 100% arabica because from the local roasters, you can probably get only arabica or arabica blend beans, and very fresh at least if I want.

Posted February 2, 2006 link

This may be where you run into some trouble.  Just because you have been told it is fresh doesn't mean it is fresh.  If I were to prioritise the list of what customers are looking (in HK and my experience of PRC) for and what coffee suppliers give people it is as follows in order of preference..

Price
Some Italian/European "heritage"
Machine deal
Freshness

The first 3 points are why in HK and PRC (and the world) you have scores of average beans being imported and sold by the truckloads and the buyers believe they have all this heritage and experience.  I'm not saying they are all bad but could be better.

Now the last point - freshness needs some clarification because I believe a lot of people over here and the big roasters themselves do not have a clue what it means.  That is why it is the last priority because the roasters don't push it and the customer is unaware of the gulf between true fresh and imported stale coffee.   Up until a few years ago, all my valve coffee bags used to come from the USA from the usual suspects.  It has only been in the past few years that valve bags have appeared on the scene being made in PRC - I understand Taiwan has been doing it for longer.   Several years ago I couldn't find any suppliers to make bags with valves - regular aluminium foil bags were no probelm but with valves no way.  I was told I would have to supply the valve insertion machine myself.  So presumably in the past few years a factory bought the fabrication tools and rights from a valve company such as Goglio.

Anyway the point is the valve situation in PRC is still misunderstood.  I know of hardly any roasters that use it who actually know what it's true purpose is.  In front of me know I have a bag from one of HK and S.China's largest roasters and the printing makes a big deal that it has a "freshness valve".   Peter I won't go into detail why calling it a freshness valve is wrong because we assume you know all this.

A very big and wealthy roasting company let me tour their factory.  These guys are massive but I was astouned by some of the things they were doing.  Coffee came from the roaster and then they let it sit for 48 hours in big wheelie-bins to degas.  Each bin could hold 3 or 4 bags at least.   Then 99% of it was packed into non-valve waffer-thin foil bags and the rest into valve bags for customers wanting a "fresher" product.

They had missed the point completely.

So maybe these roasters that have given you fresh coffee are making a few big mistakes along the way.  It's not how quickly they give it to you after roasting it's what they have done with it in the interim period that counts.  I have "fresh" samples from a big Beijing roaster with me now that is not packed in a valve bag yet the bag is not puffed up and hasn't exploded - what does that tell you?
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pstam
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pstam
Joined: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 2,349
Location: Beijing
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Espresso: ECM, SAN MARCO, EURO 2000
Grinder: MAZZER
Vac Pot: YES
Drip: YES
Roaster: YES, HOME STYLE
Posted Thu Feb 2, 2006, 11:40pm
Subject: Re: My COFFEE
 

Paul_Pratt Said:

So maybe these roasters that have given you fresh coffee are making a few big mistakes along the way.  It's not how quickly they give it to you after roasting it's what they have done with it in the interim period that counts.  I have "fresh" samples from a big Beijing roaster with me now that is not packed in a valve bag yet the bag is not puffed up and hasn't exploded - what does that tell you?

Posted February 2, 2006 link


Thank you very much for your detailed explanation and patients, first.

Yes, I know everything limited in what you said here, what I had read from this website and many others, and what I heard from many other sources.  Of course not everything about coffee.  Is this clear?

About the valve, I know your question from the Chinese roasters, both from the south and Beijing.  I said I can get fresh beans because I know, at least, some of the roasters and they can even do the roast and package as my advise.  In this case, I can guarantee the freshness.  The roasters are not big, with a 12 Kg or 20 Kg roaster only.  They would explain every details of their job and if I ask for some special requests, they can surely do it for me.

Degasing, maybe the big roasters will say that, including in Beijing.  It can be only a joke for our chatting.

At last, I must say that I am not experienced in coffee roasting, even if we roast our own beans for single origins.

Can you tell me from which company I can get some of your sample beans?  If I can get it within China, that is OK and I would be appresciated.

 
Peter in Beijing
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http://www.kaffa.cn/
-------------------
I am looking for the way and the place to extend our trainning courses.
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CK
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Joined: 8 Nov 2005
Posts: 51
Location: Melbourne
Expertise: Professional

Posted Tue Feb 14, 2006, 4:24pm
Subject: Re: My COFFEE
 

Peter , i see Mollinari are now roasting straight arabica in their coffee.
Has yours arrived?
If so can you tell us what you think of the new blend?
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pstam
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pstam
Joined: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 2,349
Location: Beijing
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: ECM, SAN MARCO, EURO 2000
Grinder: MAZZER
Vac Pot: YES
Drip: YES
Roaster: YES, HOME STYLE
Posted Wed Feb 15, 2006, 12:22am
Subject: Re: My COFFEE
 

CK Said:

Peter , i see Mollinari are now roasting straight arabica in their coffee.
Has yours arrived?
If so can you tell us what you think of the new blend?

Posted February 14, 2006 link


Yes, our new coffee arrived.  We have some samples of Molinari 100% arabica blend, but I do not like it.  When we received it, it was just about two weeks after roasting, but tasted, as we expected, soft and week.

So, we did not order it.  We do not like it at all.

You can refer to the article here,

"Robusta's Rehab"

 
Peter in Beijing
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http://www.kaffa.cn/
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I am looking for the way and the place to extend our trainning courses.
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CK
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Joined: 8 Nov 2005
Posts: 51
Location: Melbourne
Expertise: Professional

Posted Wed Feb 15, 2006, 4:06am
Subject: Re: My COFFEE
 

So youre changing coffee supplier to KIMBO coffee peter???
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pstam
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pstam
Joined: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 2,349
Location: Beijing
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: ECM, SAN MARCO, EURO 2000
Grinder: MAZZER
Vac Pot: YES
Drip: YES
Roaster: YES, HOME STYLE
Posted Wed Feb 15, 2006, 6:05am
Subject: Re: My COFFEE
 

CK Said:

So youre changing coffee supplier to KIMBO coffee peter???

Posted February 15, 2006 link



Why?  We have no reason to change the supplier for our espresso beans.  It is still Caffe Molinari.  We would not change it.

 
Peter in Beijing
-------------------
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CK
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Joined: 8 Nov 2005
Posts: 51
Location: Melbourne
Expertise: Professional

Posted Wed Feb 15, 2006, 9:27am
Subject: Re: My COFFEE
 

pstam Said:

Why?  We have no reason to change the supplier for our espresso beans.  It is still Caffe Molinari.  We would not change it.

Posted February 15, 2006 link

Oh ok.. youre still using their old blend before they moved with the times.

And you know??... the only thing that article really says about robusta in beans.. is that some roasters stick to it for traditions sake.. noone makes a good argument on any other reason to use it.

But thats ok... old blend ...robusta and old coffee...

The pther thing i was going to ask you is , you know how you said arabica coffee was sour??.. and i said maybe its your untrained palate???

Well could the coffee be under extracted???... either the temperature is not up to temperature..
youre using cold handles and a cold cup...
or too course???



because i dont understand how you use "sour " and "weak"....soft maybe...
but soft isnt a bad thing.. its the opposite to 'harsh' which is usually offensive.
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JonR10
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JonR10
Joined: 26 Apr 2004
Posts: 10,376
Location: Houston, Texas
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: E61 Legend, Livietta,...
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Roaster: 1-lb US Roaster, Behmor 1600
Posted Wed Feb 15, 2006, 9:35am
Subject: Re: My COFFEE
 

pstam Said:

When we received it, it was just about two weeks after roasting...

Posted February 15, 2006 link

I'm curious...  How is this confirmed?

All the Molinari packages i have seen never have a roast date on the label.
All the coffee I have ever seen exported from Italy never shows a roast date.  
If this is so, then how can you know that your coffee is two weeks after roasting?

Also, what is the transit time between Italy and China?
Is your coffee sent to you by airplane or by boat?  

I'm just curious...

Thanks in advance for helping me understand,
Jon

 
Jon Rosenthal
Houston, TX
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