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My COFFEE
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Discussions > Regional > Australasia > My COFFEE  
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mattyj
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mattyj
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Posted Mon Jan 23, 2006, 11:39pm
Subject: Re: My COFFEE
 

man, reading through this thread has my mind boggling.

Pstam, I don't really understand what you're trying to say. Maybe we're misunderstanding you, and that's causing some of the aussie geeks blow up at you, but you say we don't understand you.

Can someone (AndyL?) please explain to us what Pstam is trying to say?

Zhang, I noticed that you haven't posted since your first few posts. I hope you haven't been scarred off, because by the sound of it, you came here to show us what you've got, so that we can feedback, you can learn, and your espresso can get better. That's great! Keep posting!

One thing I will say is, the colour in your pictures made it hard to really hard to guage the shot. Sometimes crema seems blonde, but for all I know, it could be because the coffee is roasted lighter. I had a really blonde shot at a shop recently, amd from my first look at the crema, I was expecting thin, watery garbage.

But WOW!!! It was such a balanced shot, like there was acidity, but not too much and not-not enough. It was all berries and citrus taste-wise, but not overpowering ... a really pleasant shot, with a mellow after taste.
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AndyL
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AndyL
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Posted Tue Jan 24, 2006, 12:40am
Subject: Re: My COFFEE
 

Can someone (AndyL?) please explain to us what Pstam is trying to say?

crazy talk, Matt. I wont say it on here why he is like this on here.

Rawman. i dont even bothering reading Peter's stuff. Im sure everyone else is the same. I find this entertaining it puts a smile on my face. Freedom of speak is great. Let Peter speak his mind. He only makes Kaffa cafe look bad.

ZHANG i hope he hasnt scared you off. I dont blame you for not making him a coffee. I wouldnt waste my time.
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Lukey
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Posted Tue Jan 24, 2006, 3:00am
Subject: Re: My COFFEE
 

hey zhang,

its awesome u came to cg to help with your coffee, thats what this site is all about.
thats the reason why many of us come here because we all realise that to be the best we can is to look at coffee from all angles, talk to other people, learn from their experiences.
thats how u learn.

if u could, see if u can video your shots, technique, the whole process. its a bit hard to assess whats going on from 1 or 2 pictures.
from there everyone will be able to get a much clearer idea with how you're going.

luke

in regards to peters comments,
it reminds me of a tale about a young buddhist who wanted to learn and understand relationships between humans better. so he decided to meditate in isolation on top of a mountain.
sound familiar?

if a tree falls in the woods and squashes a narrow minded, arrogant barista and no one is around to see it. does anyone care?
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pstam
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pstam
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Posted Tue Jan 24, 2006, 4:09am
Subject: Re: My COFFEE
 

AndyL Said:

Pstam, you do terrible job in representing yourself and your cafe.

Lucky for you, there is over a billion people in China.

Posted January 23, 2006 link


Yes, it seems that you are quite right.

In my understanding, I do not want to say or put anyone down, but just tell our understanding.  In any case, our understanding is our understanding.  Nobody is forced to accept it, neither hurted.  But many people seemed to be.

If I say that the espresso of a coffee shop is not good as I tasted, other people can make their own comments.  They do not have to close my mouth, like I do not try to close their mouth.

If the coffee is good, clients like it.  What you say, neither I say make no sense.  Is that right?

If I feel that the espresso is not good, what should I say?  It is great?  It is wonderful?  Then?

I did it.  More than four years ago, when I visited some coffee shops and tasted their espresso, I would not say some bad words but tell the problem very gently if I found their espresso bad.  In this way, they never recognize the problem, at least be warned to improve it.  In stead, they believe that it was quite OK and they do not have to do anything to inprove it.  So, they closed their coffee shop after half or one year.  The most short life time was three months, and two of his coffee shops was closed.

Is that what I should do, or other people do?


peter in beijing

 
Peter in Beijing
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http://www.kaffa.cn/
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I am looking for the way and the place to extend our trainning courses.
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pstam
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pstam
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Posted Tue Jan 24, 2006, 9:33am
Subject: Re: My COFFEE
 

PioneerRoaster Said:

Or is it possible that some differences actually work , or somebody else might actually know more than you by keeping an open mind and continuing to learn while you hide in your kaffa philosophy?

Let me ask you a question Peter. If you know everything, than what are you doing on here? If it is just to put others down than that is certainly not welcome.

If you believe you know so much than may I please ask you a few questions?

1) At what point did you realise that anyone doing anything differently to your way was wrong. You mentioned people you trained 5 years ago, does this mean that you knew everything then, and if so, do you claim that nothing has been learned in the past 5 years in regards to making espresso?

2) What qualifications give you the right to critisize others thoughts and ideas? There are many people here who run succesful cafes, and many roasters who dedicate their lifes to learning about espresso and coffee in general. You have made comments about arabica being thin and sour, personally that comment is laughable and I suggest you try other peoples coffee more.

3) Is it at all possible that you have been completely blinded by what you do? Do you believe so blindly that what you do is the best, that if somebody was doing something equally as well or better you would miss it? That would be a shame!!! Think of all the great coffees you are missing out on.

Thank you for your time to respond.

P.S. One day in the not to distant future I will be setting up a shop in China (not sure of exact location) I would love for you to come and try my 100% Arabica, full bodied blend made by myself in a manner that would probably make you choke. And then taste the most beautiful espresso you have ever had in your life.

Until that day....
Jason

Posted January 23, 2006 link


Althouth your questions are all based on your understanding, I shall try to explain some of them.

1) I never say that the understanding against mine is wrong, but I said that I know your understanding and it might be wrong, as I understood.  You never explain why you are right and I might be wrong, but only to say that I am rude.

The guy I mensioned was not trained by us, otherwise he will not behave like now.  What you do not know is that the guy whom I mensioned was the chief trainee of the SPR coffee and years ago he came back to work for sending the pure water to their clients, and the training of SPR was made by his students, I guess and should be right.

Why???  For me, it is quite easy to understand but maybe hard for you.  In fact, their managers must believe that they can do that by themselves, they do not need that guy any more because it is so easy to make coffee, specially for the espresso.

In this case, how will you guess the result of their training???

For the following five years, we did learnt a lot.  For example, the so-called "golden-rule", which for me is only a reference, not a rule.

2) I have no right, like you and all others, to judge others.  But everyone, including me, have the right to tell our own understanding to others.  In fact, I get nothing by saying this except to help others.  If you do not like it nor accept them, that is your choice and what you call it.

About my comments of arabica beans, it is also one of my understanding.  If you like, you can take it as a reference.  It can benefit me nothing, here at least.  Nobody pay me anything here.

Trying others, I did.  Many people sent me their samples, and I tried.  Every single time, it is always ...... not a single one out of my understanding.  Even so, it does not mean that I can forget others.  But one has to find out the reason.  Otherswise, one has to try every single one in the world, from every corners.  But surely that is not possible.  So, if yopu know the reason, you know what you can expect, what not.

Like Mr. Newton, he tried only with apple, not peach again, not orange again, not even a big iron ball again to his head.  He did not have to kill himself to prove a fact.  He had to do the following work.

3) I do not think I am blind.  My eye are always open, but only look at the important things.  In my college, I used to hear what professor said and is important.  Never everything because I do not have enough time to hear everything.

Whenever I see or hear something, even if I do not believe it, I have to think why it is wrong carefully.  Only when I have definite evidence to show that it is wrong, I can only be feel better and stop thinking of it.  Also take the example of the "golden-rule", I can easily to find a evidence against it.  But after a long time of thinking of it, finally I recognize that it can be a reference, but not a judging rule.

I can tell you a secret.  When I discussing with you and telling my understanding to you, I may draw any possible reasonable understanding from your words.  If it is not, I forget it.  But if yes, I take it.  Never miss it.  That is also a way of learning.

It is my experience that learning most from discussing, or even from dispute.  Only very few from thinking in my mind and talking to my self.

I do not hope that it will offend any of you, I hope.

That is me.


peter in beijing

 
Peter in Beijing
-------------------
http://www.kaffa.cn/
-------------------
I am looking for the way and the place to extend our trainning courses.
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pstam
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pstam
Joined: 27 Jan 2004
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Posted Tue Jan 24, 2006, 9:55am
Subject: Re: My COFFEE
 

mattyj Said:

man, reading through this thread has my mind boggling.

Pstam, I don't really understand what you're trying to say. Maybe we're misunderstanding you, and that's causing some of the aussie geeks blow up at you, but you say we don't understand you.

Can someone (AndyL?) please explain to us what Pstam is trying to say?

Zhang, I noticed that you haven't posted since your first few posts. I hope you haven't been scarred off, because by the sound of it, you came here to show us what you've got, so that we can feedback, you can learn, and your espresso can get better. That's great! Keep posting!

One thing I will say is, the colour in your pictures made it hard to really hard to guage the shot. Sometimes crema seems blonde, but for all I know, it could be because the coffee is roasted lighter. I had a really blonde shot at a shop recently, amd from my first look at the crema, I was expecting thin, watery garbage.

But WOW!!! It was such a balanced shot, like there was acidity, but not too much and not-not enough. It was all berries and citrus taste-wise, but not overpowering ... a really pleasant shot, with a mellow after taste.

Posted January 23, 2006 link


That is perfectly right.

Even from the outlook of a real shot, one cannot judge the quality of a shot.  How can you judge it from a photo or more?  It is easy to know that with different colour setting, one in fact can see a shot in many different colours.  Computer experts can easily tell this fact.  It is not my understanding only.

From long time ago, I never made any comments to a shot through its photoes only.  I do not even make any comments to a shot, any shot from the phones or description of words.

To ZHANG's espresso, I said nothing.  I said only something about their shops.  Whether they are really an American company, or roasting their beans in the States?  Or their shops which I visited and tasted.  I personally tasted their espresso, none of you here.  What we are talking about, and how to talk about?

As I said in others thread, like the one of my reports about several shops in Hong Kong and Shenzhen, I asked the barista for her own comments, same as mine.  When I recognized the problem, I corrected it, and the espresso, as the baristas said, much improved.  They are all not my own comments, but the baristas themselves.

Am I wrong?  Tell me where?


OK, I can understand that I am not welcome here not for the reason that what I said is wrong, but I did not say what you want to hear.

If you just want to hear what you know and what you want to hear, you do not need to come hear.  Stay at home, and have a recorder to tell you what you want to hear.

Come here just for hearing something different, and you may not know.  After you carefully think of it, and you can say whether it is right or wrong, and why.


If you like, I can say,

   wonderful
   fabulous
   excellent
   champion
   exciting
   splendid

Does it make any sense?


There could be another reason, which I would not say here.  I can feel it, even when I was in Italy, from the very deep of their heart.


That is what I am trying to say.


peter in beijing

 
Peter in Beijing
-------------------
http://www.kaffa.cn/
-------------------
I am looking for the way and the place to extend our trainning courses.
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hbuchtel
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Posted Tue Jan 24, 2006, 10:32am
Subject: Re: My COFFEE
 

Peter, please try harder to express your opinions without being insulting.

Thank you,

Henry
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mikep
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mikep
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Posted Tue Jan 24, 2006, 10:47am
Subject: Re: My COFFEE
 

pstam Said:

From long time ago, I never made any comments to a shot through its photoes only.  I do not even make any comments to a shot, any shot from the phones or description of words.

Posted January 24, 2006 link

Well you posted this only about 1 year ago in this thread as a response to a member posting a picture of a cappuccino:

Sorry to say that the espresso is over-extracted, and surely the cappuccino won't be acceptable to drink.  At least I won't, even if I can drink more twenty cups of espresso while I was adjusting the machine.

It is very important to keep the quality of the cappuccino while you are going to make something better at look.


 
http://www.smallcoffee.blogspot.com
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pstam
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pstam
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Posted Tue Jan 24, 2006, 10:48am
Subject: Re: My COFFEE
 

PioneerRoaster Said:

P.S. One day in the not to distant future I will be setting up a shop in China (not sure of exact location) I would love for you to come and try my 100% Arabica, full bodied blend made by myself in a manner that would probably make you choke. And then taste the most beautiful espresso you have ever had in your life.

Posted January 23, 2006 link


Anyway, I can tell you that it is the best place to do the coffee business in Shanghai than anywhere else.  We are also going there this year.

Although it costs much more there, but the market is also big and active.  In most other cities, people would ask question about whether it is good to drink coffee.  While in Shanghai, they simply drink coffee, without asking any question.  More people drink more coffee there.


One day, we may meet there, or other countries one day.  Probably Italy this year.


peter in Beijing

 
Peter in Beijing
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-------------------
I am looking for the way and the place to extend our trainning courses.
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mattyj
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mattyj
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Posted Tue Jan 24, 2006, 4:42pm
Subject: Re: My COFFEE
 

Ok ... I think Pstam is trying to say that to help a barista grow, we (the one drinking the coffee) need to provide honest feedback, based on what we know and understand about preparing espresso.

For example, if we are served a shot that we find thin and watery, we might suggest to the barista to put more coffee into the portafilter, or maybe grind finer. Or, if we find the shot too syrupy and burnt, we might suggest grinding a tad coarser.

From there, the barista can choose to make adjustments, learn and grow, or they can ignore us, and keep making average coffee.

I agree with that. I like it when people give me honest feedback, because it helps me grow.

But Pstam, we have different taste buds. And that doesn't mean that I think it's wrong that you like drinking molinari coffee, it just means I don't like it. I've had molinari many times before, I drank it before I was a coffeegeek, and I went back and tried it again after I tried freshly roasted, 100% Arabican coffee.

To my tastebuds, I don't like Molinari coffee. Comparing it to my preferences in coffee taste, it tastes stale, flat and ashy to me. For all I know, you might like that taste. That's fine.
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