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I can't make espresso until I've had an espresso....
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D4F
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 2,038
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Baratza Forte-AP
Posted Tue Nov 5, 2013, 10:36am
Subject: Re: I can't make espresso until I've had an espresso....
 

Good catch on the lights Dan.

I have a thermometer on top of the boiler and it does not swing like PID.  I assume that it does not swing like the deadband of a bimetallic and that the water in the boiler is fairly stable.  If I hit the steam switch for about 4 seconds and wait 4 seconds, the PID tells me that the temperature is rapidly climbing, though the boiler top and presumable water does not show that, at first.  I think that the blip of steam switch probably overwhelms the surfing to a degree.

As you may know from the PID SBDU thread where heat is added during the brew, that it will not stop the intrashot drop by itself.  That is because of the heat lag into the water, not because of total calories.  Even though the controller does not have to sense cool to turn on, turns on with boiler switch, it cannot add heat fast enough. You end up with excess heat after the brew and not enough during the brew, thus the need for the steam switch blip.  Actually, you can try with light on and off and see how much difference there is. Probably not so much when you have warmed up, stabilized, for 20 minutes. I searched a bit before writing and found evidence for both on and off.  It depends somewhat on hot you b'stat runs. I probably should have noted on "4" above that you need to try brew light "on" or "off," then on with steam switch, and go by taste, sour or bitter.  I am not wanting to remove the RTD sensor and reinstall the brew stat to find that out and it could be different on our machines :)

Another good reference

Click Here (www.home-barista.com)


As noted, I have used a PID most of the time.  I was not using the steam switch blip before the PID and it was in the course of trying to control intrashot drop that I realized that total heat and cool calories was not enough, but timing also needed to be accounted for.

Hope that makes sense now :)

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
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Nurk2
Senior Member
Nurk2
Joined: 3 Oct 2013
Posts: 75
Location: Syracuse
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Gaggio Classic
Grinder: Gaggio MDF
Drip: French Press
Posted Tue Nov 5, 2013, 1:33pm
Subject: Re: I can't make espresso until I've had an espresso....
 

Thanks for the response and for the link. I think we're all on the same page here!

 
If it sounds good, it is good.
~ Duke Ellington

If you sound bad on Squire through a Peavey Bandit, you're not going to sound good on a PRS through a Badcat.

www.danskidmore.com
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D4F
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 2,038
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Baratza Forte-AP
Posted Tue Nov 5, 2013, 3:35pm
Subject: Re: I can't make espresso until I've had an espresso....
 

Nurk2 Said:

 you've convinced me. No more flushing. Maybe a little? OK. None.

Posted November 5, 2013 link

And this is the most important part :)  

If it takes 4 - 5 minutes to recover from a brew, it is the same for a flush!  I look forward to hearing how it works.

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
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Nurk2
Senior Member
Nurk2
Joined: 3 Oct 2013
Posts: 75
Location: Syracuse
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Gaggio Classic
Grinder: Gaggio MDF
Drip: French Press
Posted Wed Nov 6, 2013, 4:56am
Subject: Re: I can't make espresso until I've had an espresso....
 

D4F Said:

And this is the most important part :)  

If it takes 4 - 5 minutes to recover from a brew, it is the same for a flush!  I look forward to hearing how it works.

Posted November 5, 2013 link

Honestly, it was a sink shot - but I'm also working on grind and dose right now. The second shot was great.

 
If it sounds good, it is good.
~ Duke Ellington

If you sound bad on Squire through a Peavey Bandit, you're not going to sound good on a PRS through a Badcat.

www.danskidmore.com
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Frost
Senior Member
Frost
Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 2,116
Location: Sierra
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Isomac Venus
Grinder: Lelit PL53
Roaster: Poppery I w/variac, MET, BT
Posted Wed Nov 6, 2013, 1:44pm
Subject: Re: I can't make espresso until I've had an espresso....
 

D4F Said:

If it takes 4 - 5 minutes to recover from a brew, it is the same for a flush! ...

Posted November 5, 2013 link

4-5 minute recovery in a Gaggia seems more over damped pid than just thermal lag of the machine.

Sure the Gaggia will be longer than internal heater machines; these are more 45-60 second range.
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D4F
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 2,038
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Baratza Forte-AP
Posted Wed Nov 6, 2013, 3:16pm
Subject: Re: I can't make espresso until I've had an espresso....
 

Frost Said:

4-5 minute recovery in a Gaggia seems more over damped pid than just thermal lag of the machine.

Sure the Gaggia will be longer than internal heater machines; these are more 45-60 second range.

Posted November 6, 2013 link

For context, the 4 - 5 minutes has to do with stability, "afonic" reference included," not just reheating.  Fortunately, Nurk2 understood it in that context and will stop flushing :)

Nurk2 Said:

To get to the point ...Do I go with the 6 minute warm up recommended by the manual my espresso machine came with? No. I don't thinK that provides enough time for all the tubing and what not to heat up. But once the machine is warm to the touch, the rest is just wasted electricity - IMHO - unless someone can show me otherwise.

Maybe there's a study or something that shows that 30+ minutes of warmup time is necessary?

Posted November 4, 2013 link

D4F Said:

A little science on Gaggia supporting at least 20 minutes

Click Here (www.afonic.org)

Any flush or purge should be done very early in that small boiler.  The study also shows how long to restabilize.  You are flushing half way through.  Running water through the boiler will really affect the temperature of 105 ml boiler, and delay stabilization.

Posted November 4, 2013 link

Nurk2 Said:

Thanks! That's exactly the article I was looking for. This article was created by Auber

Either way, it appears to be solid and reasonable. It makes sense, and this article seems to show, that when you're moving a hot liquid through the Rube Goldberg contraption that is an espresso machine, it's good that the things the water comes into contact with are already warm. And 20 minutes does seem a reasonable amount of time for a relatively small unit like the Classic.

... And I know that you do not recommend flushing immediately before starting the pour... so here's what I do, and tell me how to fix it short of disassembling the poor beast and installing a PID, which is pretty unlikely to happen.

1) Heat the whole thing, with the pf attached, for 20 minutes or so.

2) Run 4 oz of hot water into the shot glasses and cup.

3) Remove and dry the pf.

4) Dose and tamp.

5) Flush another couple oz into a mug. Wait for the brew light to go off.

6) Attach pf.

7) When brew light comes back on, turn on the steam switch for a few secs. Turn off the steam switch and wait a few secs.

8) Pull 2 oz espresso in 23 - 27 secs into the pre-heated shotglasses.

9) poor it into the pre-heated cup, and drink.

... Again, I can see you've spent a lot of time thinking about this. What do you recommend?

Posted November 4, 2013 link



With a little PID controller help I am doing pull, waiting 1 minute and doing another...     Without PID controller or other temperature reference, 4 - 5 minutes for stability seems reasonable.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sluei1-IkTw

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
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Nurk2
Senior Member
Nurk2
Joined: 3 Oct 2013
Posts: 75
Location: Syracuse
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Gaggio Classic
Grinder: Gaggio MDF
Drip: French Press
Posted Thu Nov 7, 2013, 5:01am
Subject: Re: I can't make espresso until I've had an espresso....
 

Nice vid. It's actually the reason I now do the 4-secs. on the steam switch. The evidence is clear!

 
If it sounds good, it is good.
~ Duke Ellington

If you sound bad on Squire through a Peavey Bandit, you're not going to sound good on a PRS through a Badcat.

www.danskidmore.com
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Frost
Senior Member
Frost
Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 2,116
Location: Sierra
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Isomac Venus
Grinder: Lelit PL53
Roaster: Poppery I w/variac, MET, BT
Posted Thu Nov 7, 2013, 9:29am
Subject: Re: I can't make espresso until I've had an espresso....
 

D4F Said:

  ......     Without PID controller or other temperature reference, 4 - 5 minutes for stability seems reasonable.
.......

Posted November 6, 2013 link

Temperature stability to me is the time it takes for thermal equilibrium in the boiler after the heater is turned off or after the cold water flush is stopped.

Say your boiler is at 200 and you want it at 215F. A heater on time of 18 seconds (...for example) will raise the boiler by 15 deg.   So you pulse the heater for 18 seconds. Now how long do you need to wait for that energy to soak into the boiler system?



Re:  ' I can't make espresso until I've had an espresso....'

The trick is to get a consistent routine down that you can do in your sleep.
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D4F
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 2,038
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Baratza Forte-AP
Posted Thu Nov 7, 2013, 10:32am
Subject: Re: I can't make espresso until I've had an espresso....
 

Frost Said:

Temperature stability to me is the time it takes for thermal equilibrium in the boiler after the heater is turned off or after the cold water flush is stopped.

Say your boiler is at 200 and you want it at 215F. A heater on time of 18 seconds (...for example) will raise the boiler by 15 deg.   So you pulse the heater for 18 seconds. Now how long do you need to wait for that energy to soak into the boiler system?

Posted November 7, 2013 link

A heater time of 4 seconds and then additional 4 seconds rest will have heat in the boiler wall to counter the cool incoming water, but there is lag in water temperature in Gaggia with the element in the wall.  That method helps to offset the potential intrashot drop, but not raise the water temperature at the group, for example, via Styrofoam cup or DIY thermofilter.  Counting calories of heating and cooling does not mean that the timing is correct and equilibrium has occurred.

How long to wait?  The Gaggia Afonic study suggests 4 - 5 minutes.  As you can see in the video, it is possible to strike a balance of incoming cool water and heated boiler shell and get the desired temperature at the group.  

Perhaps you have a better step by step for those new to Gaggia that you would like to share?

Nurk2, sorry if this has become a hijack beyond what you asked, but somewhat related :)

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
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Frost
Senior Member
Frost
Joined: 26 Jul 2007
Posts: 2,116
Location: Sierra
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Isomac Venus
Grinder: Lelit PL53
Roaster: Poppery I w/variac, MET, BT
Posted Thu Nov 7, 2013, 1:11pm
Subject: Re: I can't make espresso until I've had an espresso....
 

It's been 5+ years since I worked with the Gaggia, (it's still in the basement.) I would suggest to put a thermometer probe on the boiler, far away from the element.  I used the front middle of the boiler.

Through tasting and testing, figure out what  boiler temperature will give you good brew temps; not sour, not bitter,  crema color is another good temperature indicator.

Now figure out what you need to do in terms of a 'surf' to consistently park the boiler at this temperature.

I think it is a good idea as you indicate to use the heater before/during the shot to compensate for the incoming cold water.  Also for consistency,  you should start the pull when the boiler temperature is most stable. If the boiler is rising or falling rapidly, it will not be as repeatable; from temperature gradients in the boiler.  This is the 'stability' I was referring to. I wait about a minute on the Venus between heater off and pulling the shot. This is enough time for the boiler temperature to stabilize.  There is a window of time between maximum rise in the boiler temperature and before it starts to fall. For temp surfing, this is the ideal time window. For a PID, it's mostly irrelevant.
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