TonyVan Senior Member Joined: 24 May 2010 Posts: 267 Location: Pacific Northwest Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: GS/3, La Pavoni Grinder: Macap M7K, Rocky Drip: Kone
Posted Thu Nov 3, 2011, 10:56pm Subject: Re: Food for thought about Vendor Complaints
Eric's point is important. At core, the problem is the conflict for a site whose purpose is offering value via the widest range and contributorship possible, while simultaneously recognizing that adding errors, incorrect judgments and bad advice to threads is counterproductive, whether well- or ill-intentioned. The purpose of waiting periods or minimum post histories is simply to increase the likelihood of sounder content and more experienced judgment.
This seems reasonable, but at what cost?
Consider: while this thread's focused so far on problems with unfair and erroneous trashing, the same concern goes for false positives. An unschooled rave that sends members off to buy a poor product will directly damage those members while also unfairly hurting the purveyors of the good products who wrongly lost those sales.
So what are we to do? Limiting positive reviews - because they might be wrong - will just as surely throw scores of babies out with all that bath water, the same as squelching negative talk.
The judgment needs to come from somewhere; since one cannot control the writers without watering down the site's value, that judgment needs to reside with, as usual, the reader. Yes it's painful to see incompetents lashing out at a worthy product, or holding sellers to crazily impractical expectations, but "stupid" is pretty easy to spot, and vendors really are able to take care of themselves. Even the valid product or service problems that are aired out here give the target the opportunity to fix those instances in public, which only raises the vendor's credibility and standing.
On balance, eugenic exercises seldom work out very well, and asking Mark to embark on one here will surely provide another example of the cure proving worse than the disease.
Posted Thu Nov 3, 2011, 11:00pm Subject: Re: Food for thought about Vendor Complaints
Wow.
(Sorry for my absence, computer issues)
Frankly (and I'll be brief here guys) I don't see any need for anymore rules. (Notice the period on that sentence).
I just had the *cough* luxury *cough* of reading that thread from top to bottom. What I read was one frustrated user venting about a purchase incident and then many, and I mean many, thoughtful and respectful replies from community members (thanks guys!) and even a direct response from the company president.
Not even that was enough.
Rules won't keep topics like these from cropping up (as ugly as they are) and really the best counter-balance is the community reaction like what I read in that discussion. I'm sure Kyle (or anyone in the consumer business) knows all too well that there will always be customers that suffer unfortunate incidents, and no amount of response will appease them. How many of these customers a given company has says less of a company then how a company reacts to those customers.
Kyle nailed it.
Still wasn't enough.
That discussion has run its coarse and seems to have hopefully died off. Lets all walk away until the next event arises, it surely will, a sad fact of the eShopping age and imperfect world we live in.
NobbyR Senior Member Joined: 10 Jul 2011 Posts: 1,604 Location: Germany Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Poccino Opus One, Ariete Grinder: Eureka Mignon Istantaneo,... Vac Pot: N/A Drip: Melitta Linea Unica de Luxe Roaster: N/A
Posted Fri Nov 4, 2011, 1:59am Subject: Re: Food for thought about Vendor Complaints
The general trouble is IMHO that a satisfied customer will only write one positive review of his buying experience at maximum, but a for what ever reason dissatisfied customer is likely to complain about it several times and at different places.
*** "This drink of the Satan is so delicious that it would be a shame to leave it to the infidels." (Pope Clement VIII on coffee)
Joel_B Senior Member Joined: 9 Oct 2007 Posts: 1,823 Location: Pacific NW Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Astra Mega II Grinder: Mazzer SJ, Virtuoso Vac Pot: Yama 5 cup Drip: nope, french press Roaster: Behmor, WP, BBQ drum
Posted Fri Nov 4, 2011, 5:50am Subject: Re: Food for thought about Vendor Complaints
Bob_McBob Said:
No, he was repeatedly called out for acting like a child and making his minor issue a personal vendetta against Baratza and their employees. He had a completely unrealistic timeline expectation for the resolution of his problem. Two business days after receiving the grinder it was a "saga" and he was contacting CC to demand that they accept a return and cover shipping charges both ways. It's plainly obvious to (almost) everyone that he did not deal with the situation in a reasonable manner.
EDITED FOR CLARIFICATION And yet no one was wanting to call baratza out! I agree the customer overreacted without a doubt but baratza was not acting stellar as everyone was saying. the general posts were "baratza is the best in the business so the problem must be you". Mistakes happen, period. It has nothing to do with whether a mistake happens it's how you recover. Frankly baratza recovered horribly assuming the account is truthful and should be embarrassed. Allegedly Was shipped the wrong bin, was told by baratza it might of bin the vendor fault (always a bad idea to bite the hand that feeds you), then is told a new one will be overnighted. A new bin should of been there the next day. Then no record of the issue when customer calls back. Then after six days a bin comes in? That's just a mess all around REGARDLESS of how reasonable or unreasonable the customer was.
And Chris you have first hand experience when you posted the way you were treated by Chris coffee. You were ridiculed because again, "Chris is best in the business so the problem is you" while people weren't reading what your actual complaint was. I feel you were grossly mistreated. So I stand by my point that just cuz someone's has 100 posts doesn't mean it's better.
EDIT: before it comes back to bite I'd like to say that I believe in baratza as a company with great service and good products, only that I believe they dropped the ball in this instance.
With all due respect we can't, and neither can you.
We only have half of the story, which you rehash in your post, of the story told by a frustrated user. Until Kyle posts here confirming any of these events we have to take this whole story with a HUGE grain of salt (which I'm now going to go rub in my eyes because these PSA never do any good).
Posted Fri Nov 4, 2011, 7:24am Subject: Re: Food for thought about Vendor Complaints
Here is the thing, before I got into the whole espresso scene I thought that bad customer service and just plain deceptiveness has been largely banished to fringes of commerce. But for some reason lot of espresso equipment vendors are on those fringes.
Even for "best" of the vendors service can be spotty and policies inconsistent which is caused by them living on the fringe. The business they have is not developed enough to have policies and procedures on how to deal with customers problems...
If we let them vendors hide we are doing diservice to them as well as to community. In this day and age there is no excuse for vendor not coming here or anywhere on the internet to give their side of the story. And if you are trying to create reputable business then this is one of the things you must do these days. At the end, every customer complaint is chance to make you really shine especially if you resolve it in public eye. In essence its huge marketing opportunity that does not cost that much.
I think that number of people that would come to any forum with purpose of bad mouthing company just for fun is low. 90% of people that complain have very likely valid issue with how transaction they had with vendor played out.
Let the sun shine and dissolve any fog since we all see better on sunny day :-)
You're right Tim, I should of said "alleged". What I will say though, is based on the evidence presented, there's a certainly level of probability things didn't go smoothly.
You know what they say, there's always three sides to every story: His side, Her side, and The Truth.
Let's be realistic here. Nobody thinks it's great he got the wrong bin, but we understand it is a new product and they made a mistake and acknowledged it and personally apologized to him. He gave them two days (no, businesses do not operate on the weekend) to resolve his problem before contacting CC to demand a paid refund. Most people would consider a personal apology from a company's president and having the situation resolved within a few business days pretty reasonable customer service.
This is not a case where a vendor or manufacturer is being uncooperative, trying to shift blame, or blowing off the customer. It's an angry and impatient guy ignoring all the advice he is given and getting more and more riled up.
Joel_B Said:
And Chris you have first hand experience when you posted the way you were treated by Chris coffee. You were ridiculed because again, "Chris is best in the business so the problem is you" while people weren't reading what your actual complaint was. I feel you were grossly mistreated.
Nobody thinks it's great he got the wrong bin, but we understand it is a new product and they made a mistake and acknowledged it and personally apologized to him.
Wrong bin, yes. Understandable, not really the issue though. As I've continuedto say, it's not IF a mistake happens it's how you recover WHEN it does.
Bob_McBob Said:
He gave them two days (no, businesses do not operate on the weekend) to resolve his problem before contacting CC to demand a paid refund. Most people would consider a personal apology from a company's president and having the situation resolved within a few business days pretty reasonable customer service.
Again, I don't believe the customer was reasonable. The appearance in the thread by baratza was a good one. Admitted the issue and offered to fix it.
Bob_McBob Said:
This is not a case where a vendor or manufacturer is being uncooperative, trying to shift blame, or blowing off the customer. It's an angry and impatient guy ignoring all the advice he is given and getting more and more riled up.
The vendor for sure took care of the customer. A+ to Chris!
The mfgr promised originally To replace bin. Didn't happen. Mfgr publicaly apologizes and commits to fixing the problem which (again, this is all allegedly) doesn't happen. Ok, grinder should of come with correct bin but didn't. Ok. But it should of been overnighted to customer upon first call to baratza. That would be a reasonable thing for mfgr to do and certainly expected after mfgr promised to do so. That didn't happen. As I see it, baratza doesnt deserve kudos for that. It appears they dropped the ball here. again, baratza I believe to be a good company with great CS and approachable innovative products. This instance, the CS didn't come though (IMO of course). I don't think any less of the company for it, and I'm sure baratza will be a better company for it.
Customer (IMO) was unreasonable and is missing out on a good grinder. His choice and certainly his prerogative and he's certainly knocking on wood that he chose a reputable vendor. Can't blame customer for decision even though mine would be different. He lied in his bed and now he needs to make it. You call him impatience and maybe he was but it's subjective.
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