Bitches_Brew Senior Member Joined: 4 Feb 2009 Posts: 443 Location: indiana Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: silvia Grinder: rocky Roaster: behmor
Posted Fri Nov 6, 2009, 7:05am Subject: Re: Aeropress owner and CoffeeGeek.
SlowRain Said:
This whole forum, along with the lives of the moderators, would run so much smoother if there was a little less hostility, snobbery, antagonism, elitism, etc. I welcome any and all efforts in improving this area.
i agree and have said the same thing in the past, many times.
it seems like this is all over money, not what the device produces. like they say..... money is the root of all evil today.
IMO, all the traffic the areopress thread produced has done more positive things, and generated more traffic for the site, than any paid CG ad has. it has almost a million views. that can't be a bad thing. it seems like mark is mad that a portion of those views are not lining his pocket.
i don't see an ad for the behmor roaster on here. does that mean joe is going to have problems posting in the future? i sure hope not.
just for the record, i don't even own an aeropress. so this has no biased towards one at all. i just like controversial threads.:)
Posted Fri Nov 6, 2009, 10:48am Subject: Re: Aeropress owner and CoffeeGeek.
So, is one message to be gleaned from all this fallout "it's better to be polite than correct"?
My impression of things (with no inside information) is that Mark is not getting rich in the least from CG, so the comment that he is upset that he isn't profiting from this seems out of line. Alan on the other hand has profited tremendously from all the exposure he's received here on CG. I ain't smart enuff to say who's right in the dispute between Andy and Alan; Andy seems correct but expresses himself less politely than many of us would; Alan seems obtuse in this matter but is more polite.
And SlowRain, it would not be acceptable to use the words you proposed in bolded type. But it would be understandable if, after a long-running debate with someone with less knowledge on a given topic than you, who you feel refuses to accept facts and argues from narrow definitions, you then were to express yourself less politely than you normally would.
I too am sorry to see Alan go. This is the best coffee community on the internet thanks absolutely to Mark and the moderators, but also to the input of all of us. Allowing "information" to be posted that is contrary to what the site owner and knowledgable experts believe to be true serves no-one's interests.
If anyone has a better idea of what to do when something like this arises, I'm sure they would love to hear from you.
Posted Fri Nov 6, 2009, 11:23am Subject: Re: Aeropress owner and CoffeeGeek.
Bitches_Brew Said:
IMO, all the traffic the areopress thread produced has done more positive things, and generated more traffic for the site, than any paid CG ad has. it has almost a million views. that can't be a bad thing. it seems like mark is mad that a portion of those views are not lining his pocket.
IMO your argument makes no sense. Pardon my saying so, but you seem to be in the dark about how business works.
The advertising is what pays for the site to run, without which there would be no AP thread for us to discuss. Advertising does not directly "line the pockets" of the site owner, it mainly goes to pay for expenses and upgrades, programming maintenance, etc.. Maybe you'd be interested in learning about the costs assiociated with running and hosting a site like CoffeeGeek, from your post I'm guessing it would be an enlightening exercise.
Paid ads do not draw traffic, they exist because of the traffic from site content that is attractive to advertisers. Mark has not gained profit from the AP thread like Alan has....a million views? There is no better advertising than THAT.
The fact that such a thread can damage the site revenue means that allowing it to continue could actually threaten the livlihood of Coffeegeek.com (in the extreme case).
Posted Fri Nov 6, 2009, 11:35am Subject: Re: Aeropress owner and CoffeeGeek.
SlowRain Said:
This whole forum, along with the lives of the moderators, would run so much smoother if there was a little less hostility, snobbery, antagonism, elitism, etc.
Would you want to log in to CG everyday, screen every post for "politeness" then decide if its appropriate for this community? I sure the hell don't. I used to be able to come to CG and talk about *GASP* coffee. Lately however the moderating team is being called on to babysit.
SlowRain Said:
So, if you deem the above comments appropriate and that they don't break any of the forum rules, then I will start using them myself when engaging in discussions where people have caused me frustration. I'll let you discuss it with the other moderators. Right now is Friday night where I am, Friday morning in North America. I'll give you the weekend to discuss it. Starting Monday, if there are no objections from you, I will start using those phrases. I will also provide a link back to this thread just so the people I'm criticizing know that my words are deemed friendly. If it's okay for AndyS when he's frustrated, then it's okay for SlowRain when he's frustrated, wouldn't you agree?
You're actually going to employ the conduct you dislike? This may be unwise simply because you will reap what you sew so to speak, your conduct reflects on you and others will use your conduct to judge you. Use caution.
In response to this discussion as whole I find it completely ridiculous. Its an embarrassment to what the whole of the CG community is.
Bitches_Brew Senior Member Joined: 4 Feb 2009 Posts: 443 Location: indiana Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: silvia Grinder: rocky Roaster: behmor
Posted Fri Nov 6, 2009, 12:16pm Subject: Re: Aeropress owner and CoffeeGeek.
JonR10 Said:
IMO your argument makes no sense. Pardon my saying so, but you seem to be in the dark about how business works.
The advertising is what pays for the site to run, without which there would be no AP thread for us to discuss. Advertising does not directly "line the pockets" of the site owner, it mainly goes to pay for expenses and upgrades, programming maintenance, etc.. Maybe you'd be interested in learning about the costs assiociated with running and hosting a site like CoffeeGeek, from your post I'm guessing it would be an enlightening exercise.
Paid ads do not draw traffic, they exist because of the traffic from site content that is attractive to advertisers. Mark has not gained profit from the AP thread like Alan has....a million views? There is no better advertising than THAT.
The fact that such a thread can damage the site revenue means that allowing it to continue could actually threaten the livlihood of Coffeegeek.com (in the extreme case).
i agree. i have no clue what it takes to run a site like this, and like island bob said, i have no clue about who's "right" in the debate between andy and alan. i do know this has to do with money, or the whole paying for ad's thing what have not been brought up. i also know, without the aeropress thread, this site would have less visitors.
in the end it all boils down to money, profit or not. mark feels entitled to a piece for letting him use this site. it sorta reminds me of a sopranos episode.
kschendel Senior Member Joined: 7 Nov 2008 Posts: 146 Location: Pittsburgh Expertise: I love coffee
Grinder: Maestro Roaster: Freshroast
Posted Fri Nov 6, 2009, 5:35pm Subject: Re: Aeropress owner and CoffeeGeek.
gt Said:
Hey Andy was the only one that stood up and challenged Alan and I'd like to thank him for that. Without Andy's posts, Alan would have had a free rein to promote his method for calculating extraction that greatly favors his product.
This is just my opinion but I think that over 50-60 years the coffee industry has concluded that when extraction is 19-20% the best cup results. Alan's recommended AeroPress method falls 2-3 percentage points below this range, thus he is trying to redefine the accepted method for calculating extraction.
If Andy felt that this was such a crucial issue that he could not just walk away, then he should have dug in just as politely as Alan did, instead of flaming and making obnoxious statements. I have no idea who is right on the extraction methodology issue (nor do I care a whit), but just from reading the posts, I got the initial impression that Alan was probably right and that Andy was a troll. Now, that impression was apparently quite wrong, but you see why I said that Andy did not advance his cause any.
Alan has a tendency to gather quotes to make himself appear to be the victim and it is very convincing on the surface, until you go check the background and context of those quotes. He seems to have an amazing ability to dredge up old conversations and pick out phrases (even from deleted posts!) that when gathered together appear quite damning, but if one goes back and sees the background and the context then there is really more to the story.
In a way, it reminds me of growing up. My little brother would antagonize me to no end, and after a while I couldn’t take any more and I would punch him….of course he ran crying to momma and I got in trouble. She didn’t care at all that he had provoked me for days beforehand, to her I appeared to be a bully.
What Alan carefully omits are examples of Andy (and others) trying patiently to get him to see (or even acknowledge) a fact or data point for several posts prior to any less tactful posts. Alan is just plucking out the tiny bits to make his case and be the martyr, but he leaves out all the other build up or references, especially all of the more patient posts and quotable material that were much more tactful.
Those of you who are familiar with AndyS and Mark Prince might want to explore what’s behind this apparent aggression towards Alan. For example, has any of you ever seen Mark or Andy ever post in anger and frustration at ANYONE ELSE? This is something I am guilty of far too often, but not Mark and Andy. Those guys are more cerebral and intellectual and prefer to engage in reasonable and logical debate (i.e. check out how Mark disagreed with Ken Fox about freezing coffee for a perfect example).
The fact that Alan has aggravated and frustrated Mark and Andy (of all people) to the point of posting in anger is VERY telling IMHO. I challenge everyone who reads this to find and post some links to quotes where either Mark or Andy lays in to any other person in any similar fashion. You'll see that even when Mark feels he has to "lower the boom" he does so with tact and decorum.
SlowRain Said:
I hope you will indulge me a bit here. I'm going to compose a reply to you using a paraphrasing of the above language. This is not a personal attack, it is just for illustrative purposes.
Slowrain - if you spend a lot of time and effort to interact with someone, explain facts and opinion over several posts attempting to illuminate and exchange, and the person tightly grabs onto one solitary thing you've written and REPEATEDLY uses it out of context to show you're wrong and they are right, and only THEN you let slip one comment out of a 400 word response… Then yes, you have no worry about having your posts stricken or censored.
But if you just lace a post full of these kinds of comments, essentially mimicking the out-of-context quoting style Alan employs or if you string together a post like your bolded passage above, then you can expect a strike and probably have that post deleted.
The mod group sees plenty of borderline posts and we sometimes discuss them, and by and large we try to let people express themselves. Personal attacks are not allowed, but we are NOT the “friendly police”. Of all the quotes Alan is crying foul over, only a couple could be called “personal” and those are fairly mild compared to what we will strike and delete. Claiming someone is “posting nonsense” or “making a silly claim” or making “an ignorant or absurd statement” is NOT personal.
Those complaints are about the subject or post – and not the person. For example:
“Your post is ignorant and absurd”
is different from saying
“YOU are ignorant and absurd”
That said, I think I can speak for the moderators when I say we do try to help keep coffeegeek a friendly and inviting place to share and debate...but there is no rule that says everyone who posts is required to be sweet as candy all of the time ;-)
SlowRain Senior Member Joined: 31 Jul 2008 Posts: 174 Location: a Canadian expat in Taiwan Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: La Pavoni PRH Grinder: Sözen Turkish & Porlex... Vac Pot: *$-Bodum French press Drip: AeroPress
Posted Fri Nov 6, 2009, 10:11pm Subject: Re: Aeropress owner and CoffeeGeek.
Don't worry. I will only employ phrasing and wording that Andy used, and only then on people with whom I'm frustrated. It will, however, be retroactive. I'm simply going to stop acting in the tactful manner that Alan employs when he his frustrated, and it will be more reminiscent of the manner Andy employed when he was frustrated. Caution will be exercised to the extent that I will not deviate from the manner that Andy employed. Moderators need not worry because I will not go beyond whatever Mark posts; they can rest assured that it will be sanctioned from the very top, and the other users on Coffee Geek will be able to see it as well. It will be the most effective way of communicating, and it can be used by everyone as a precedent to follow.
Saying "Your post is ignorant and absurd" is no different from saying "You are ignorant and absurd". I know you really want it to be different, but it isn't. I'd like you to walk up to Mike Tyson and tell him his clothes are girlish, then explain to him that saying his clothes are girlish is not the same as saying he is girlish. Let me know how you make out with that.
IMAWriter Moderator Joined: 4 Jul 2002 Posts: 2,897 Location: Brentwood, TN Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Olympia Cremina, Reg, Penney... Grinder: KYM manual, Vario (on... Vac Pot: Silex, Adcraft SS, Yama 8... Drip: Chemex, Newco, Clever cup Roaster: Behmor 1600, CO/UFO combo
Posted Fri Nov 6, 2009, 10:37pm Subject: Re: Aeropress owner and CoffeeGeek.
i do know this has to do with money
And you'd know that how?
or the whole paying for ad's thing what have not been brought up. i also know, without the aeropress thread, this site would have less visitors.
What has that got to do with anything? Nor can you prove that.
in the end it all boils down to money, profit or not. mark feels entitled to a piece for letting him use this site. it sorta reminds me of a sopranos episode.
OK, so a Television series forms the basis for your spurious, personal accusations. You have NO intelligent argument here. Money is not the issue, it's about whether one can argue the facts without someone else whining that they are being attacked. There was NO personal attack. Except yours. BB, I feel, until you can prove your allegations regarding Mark's motivation, You owe him an apology. I have no horse in this race, other than to gladly serve the members here as best I can. This is not a paying gig, nor does it gives me, or any moderator pleasure to call out a member, you included. For all others, pleaseallow the process to resolve.
MarkPrince Moderator Joined: 19 Dec 2001 Posts: 5,144 Location: Vancouver Expertise: Professional
Espresso: Frankenstein'ed LM Linea Grinder: Anfim Super Caimano Vac Pot: 1922 Silex Drip: Krups Moka Brew Roaster: Hottop
Posted Fri Nov 6, 2009, 10:44pm Subject: Re: Aeropress owner and CoffeeGeek.
SlowRain Said:
Don't worry. I will only employ phrasing and wording that Andy used, and only then on people with whom I'm frustrated. It will, however, be retroactive. I'm simply going to stop acting in the tactful manner that Alan employs when he his frustrated, and it will be more reminiscent of the manner Andy employed when he was frustrated. Caution will be exercised to the extent that I will not deviate from the manner that Andy employed. Moderators need not worry because I will not go beyond whatever Mark posts; they can rest assured that it will be sanctioned from the very top, and the other users on Coffee Geek will be able to see it as well. It will be the most effective way of communicating, and it can be used by everyone as a precedent to follow.
You've chosen to hide your identity while posting here. Andy and I do not. And I'm not talking about some "faked" name that sounds real either. Andy and I often are answerable to a lot of people, in person, for what we say online. Can you say the same? In the coffee arena?
edit On top of that, I have met Alan several times, and Andy has as well, I believe. And while I don't want to speak for Andy, I can say with absolute certainty that I have not typed anything to Alan I wouldn't say to him in person, one on one or in a crowd. That's one of my basic rules for Internet writing - never type anything I'd be afraid to say to a person's face.
Based on these things, esp the hidden identity part, I'd say you won't be emulating my posting style or Andy's.
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