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Aeropress owner and CoffeeGeek.

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MarkPrince
Moderator

Joined: 19 Dec 2001
Posts: 5,144
Location: Vancouver
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: Frankenstein'ed LM Linea
Grinder: Anfim Super Caimano
Vac Pot: 1922 Silex
Drip: Krups Moka Brew
Roaster: Hottop

Posted Thu Nov 5, 2009, 4:03pm Subject: Aeropress owner and CoffeeGeek.

I'm hesitant to post this, but due to the three emails I received today feeling I was being unfair to Alan in the Aeropress thread "Aerobie Aeropress" and defending Andy too much, I wanted to do a small followup. Alan says he's quitting CoffeeGeek. It isn't the first time he's said he's doing this - in the past he said he was done with the site, but came back. If he is done, on some levels I'm sad, but probably not as much as many participants in the Aeropress threads. Some felt I was over the top in calling Alan to task for his years of using CoffeeGeek forums as a free promotional venue for his product, from which he profits greatly. For a bit more background, read these posts: "Re: Blind Tasting At SCAA - Charlotte" "Re: Blind Tasting At SCAA - Charlotte" Even after we made those statements, after a lull time, Alan came back and continued promoting his products, including posting links, videos, etc. As far as I know, no other web forum dedicated to coffee and espresso has given Alan this kind of latitude and a free hand to promote his product. I know he's tried and had the forum owners scale him back or outright stop his posts. And, as far as I know, Aerobee and Aeropress doesn't do anything to support coffee and barista communities - I could be wrong on this but I don't recall Alan sponsoring any jams or competitions, or any other websites for that matter. Yet I'm the bad person here when I call Alan to task. I want to make something VERY clear here. We've lost advertising revenue in three ways because of the latitude we've given Alan Adler: 1- We've had two advertisers specifically pull their ad programs because they felt we were giving preferential treatment to Alan 2- We've had one advertiser who had an aeropress ad program in place cancel it because he felt there was no need - the forum discussions were enough to promote the product (and their website was linked to in several threads) 3- We have had no ad revenue from Aeropress save for one New and Noteworthy 4 years ago. 99.9% of the time, I wouldn't even be talking about these things publicly, but on a personal note, Alan's "I'm taking my ball and going home" stance has me really, really pissed off. There's absolutely no gratitude in any form displayed for the venue we've provided him or the latitiude for years now we've given him, even after we said "no more promotion, Alan". Nor is there any respect shown for what people like Andy Schecter have done for this industry - stuff Andy derives no real commercial profits for. I'm angry because of these things. Getting back a bit on my own topic - those who think Alan was treated unfairly, or that we need to be a "NicePolice" to Andy for showing his frustration for Alan - I'd suggest you go some of the history of postings. Here's one I did back in 2006 when I threw up my hands in despair over Alan's blinders' approach to the debate on "is Aeropress espresso"? "Re: Blind Tasting At SCAA - Charlotte" To those who think Alan is shaking up the status quo. I have no problems with the status quo shakers - the legitimate ones who can back up their claims using adequate coffee (and not supermarket french roast to determine 175F is the ideal brewing temperature), adequate skills, and a modicum of the scientific method. But Alan was so determined to prove that the aeropress produced modern day espresso, he was completely ignoring well established science and fact to do so. Don't even get me started on his stance on LDL. Long story short, Alan is not a status quo breaker in any real sense. He's a marketer and tinkerer who has created a great brewing device that can brew delicious coffee when used the right way. 175F, 40g of coffee for 3oz liquid, and reusing paper filters 10 times is not the right way. This is probably a heap of dirty laundry, but I'm quite upset by all of this. I've been purposely ignoring the Aeropress thread for years now, but in reviewing it this week I notice Alan has not respected my request to stop outright promotion of his product. I notice he's still making the same completely outlandish claims about his product and I notice that Andy Schecter is still fighting the good fight, trying to educate over the misinformation being spread. Espresso as an art and science won't advance if we let poor and inaccurate information about it spread. Mark

Mark Prince, CoffeeGeek.com, CoffeeKid.com CoffeeGeek on Youtube: www.youtube.com/coffeegeek CoffeeGeek's Flickr Stream: www.flickr.com/photos/coffeegeek

MarkPrince
Moderator

Posted Thu Nov 5, 2009, 4:15pm Subject: Re: Aeropress owner and CoffeeGeek.

I should add one thing. I do think the Aeropress is a great brewing device, and at its price point should be a staple in any coffee lover's arsenal. It's one of the best new brewing products I've seen in the last five years. It does need two improvements though - better instructions - completely revised and with alternative brewing methods included - a metal or otherwise permanent filter (or perforated paper filters that allow oils to go through). So many methods are now out in the wild for using the Aeropress in great, inventive ways. The inverted method is my own personal favourite, but I was also jonesin' on Tom Owen's hacked Hario Skelton grinder setup with his travel aeropress. I've bought over 20 Aeropresses over the years to give away as gifts, to use in local CoffeeGeek events and promotions. I even gave one to Bronwen Serna when she was thinking about incorporating it into a barista competition routine - all purchases out of my own pocket. Mark

Mark Prince, CoffeeGeek.com, CoffeeKid.com CoffeeGeek on Youtube: www.youtube.com/coffeegeek CoffeeGeek's Flickr Stream: www.flickr.com/photos/coffeegeek

AlanAdler
Senior Member

Joined: 31 Dec 2005
Posts: 583
Location: Palo Alto, Calif
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: AeroPress
Grinder: Baratza - Virtuoso
Roaster: Fresh Roast Plus 8

Posted Thu Nov 5, 2009, 7:53pm Subject: Re: Aeropress owner and CoffeeGeek.

Hi Mark, I am not returning to the forum. But I'd like to respond to your post. First of all, I had no idea that you wanted me to buy more advertising than I already had. You never suggested it. In fact you yourself were taking heat for the fact that I was a paying customer. Here is where stinkyjones took a potshot at you, http://coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/209031#209031 The link in stinky's post used to go to a paid AeroPress ad, but it no longer does. Because you never asked me for financial support, I thought that you wanted to avoid heat like stinky's. You are correct in writing "he said he was done with the site, but came back". I did try to drop out once before. But you urged me to stay. As you will recall, in the first year of the AeroPress, I was the target of some heat on the coffeegeek and alt-coffee forums. I wrote to you saying that it was not fun and planned to drop out of both. You sent me an email urging me to stay. You said that unlike alt-coffee, coffeegeek was moderated and friendly. So I did stay. But after that much of the heat came from you yourself. With regard to LDL, even your good friend Andy has paid heed to the overwhelming amount of evidence against unfiltered coffee. http://coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/348745#348745 I note that you posted three links to your posts regarding Blind Tasting At SCAA - Charlotte. I hope you'll allow me to humbly submit this link. It is my confession of heresy. http://coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/229643#229643 Sincerely yours, Alan

SlowRain
Senior Member

Joined: 31 Jul 2008
Posts: 174
Location: a Canadian expat in Taiwan
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Pavoni PRH
Grinder: Sözen Turkish & Porlex...
Vac Pot: *$-Bodum French press
Drip: AeroPress

Posted Thu Nov 5, 2009, 9:41pm Subject: Re: Aeropress owner and CoffeeGeek.

Mark, I'm one of the people who sent an email. I don't know how much of a discussion you want about this, but I'll post my thoughts in this thread. Finances and science aside, my overall stance on this is a matter of principle. Two people engaged in a discussion about an issue they both believed in strongly. Both people were equally convinced of the correctness of their beliefs. Both people were frustrated at the other's refusal to "see the light". I don't think people are taking that last fact into account because one of the people involved restrained themselves admirably. Everyone is talking about the frustration Andy feels at having to put up with Alan, no one is considering how frustrated Alan feels--after all, both feel they are equally correct. I'm going to say it again: Alan is just as frustrated as Andy. So with that in mind, we have two people, equally convinced of their opinions and equally frustrated, engaging in a discussion. One of those people was professional and tactful, one of those people was not. I don't even have to use names for you or anyone to be able to identify the unprofessional and tactless one. Regarding science: Provide a forum for free discussion of ideas. Let each person put forward their ideas in a non-hostile manner. Let each person respond to the other's ideas in a non-hostile, non-condescending, and non-snobbish manner. Let the users of Coffee Geek read the comments, test out the ideas, and arrive at their own conclusions. Along the way, new ideas and innovations will come up as direct and indirect results of all the discussion and experimentation going on. I think, thus far, you have done a good job providing the forum and allowing freeness of discussion. Alan has done a good job putting forward his ideas in a non-hostile manner. Do I need to mention the actions of the other party involved? Andy may be 100% correct, Alan may be 100% correct, they both may be varying degrees of correct: it really doesn't matter because it is, ultimately, up to the users of Coffee Geek and owners of coffee businesses to decide for themselves based on their own results. Regarding finances: I think Coffee Geek, in the long run, has benefited more from Alan's presence than what would have been the case had he not been here. How many people continually say they found this forum because they did a search on Mazzer Super Jolly, Rancilio Silvia, AndyS, Mark Prince, etc? Other than a generic search for coffee discussion forums, I'll bet the AeroPress is your second-biggest traffic producer. That is definitely worth something financial to Coffee Geek and something not to be overlooked when discussing Alan's presence here. Alan has benefited too, and I'm glad. It seems everyone has benefited... ...well, everyone has benefited, perhaps except for the status quo. Just to be correct I rechecked the definition of status quo in a dictionary, and in the broadest and narrowest definitions of the concept, Alan is challenging the status quo. There must always be a place for challenging the status quo in a non-hostile manner. It leads to transparency--a word third-wave coffee loves to throw around--and promotes fresh thinking. Show me an inefficient, sluggish, out-dated industry, and I'll show you an industry that, for one reason or another, is scared of, criticizes, or otherwise stifles dissent. Alan can be 100% wrong, but I support his right to present his ideas without being insulted. No one deserves to be treated the way he was. I may not agree with him, but I will, metaphorically speaking, pay his legal bills to take his case to the highest coffee authority, even if I then sit on the other side of the courtroom. (I should note that I think the very idea of a coffee authority is absurd.) There was one person in the general AeroPress thread who made a good point, albeit in a hostile manner rather reminiscent of Andy's posts. He said--and I'm paraphrasing here--that just because people may not be experts in the world of coffee, that doesn't mean they don't understand social skills. To add my own comment: Humanity must come before everything else.

rhyven
Senior Member

Joined: 5 Dec 2006
Posts: 20
Location: New Zealand
Expertise: I love coffee

Drip: Aeropress

Posted Thu Nov 5, 2009, 10:26pm
Subject: Re: Aeropress owner and CoffeeGeek.

SlowRain Said:

There was one person in the general AeroPress thread who made a good point, albeit in a hostile manner rather reminiscent of Andy's posts. He said--and I'm paraphrasing here--that just because people may not be experts in the world of coffee, that doesn't mean they don't understand social skills. To add my own comment: Humanity must come before everything else.

Posted November 5, 2009 link

Oops.

I wasn't meaning to be hostile. I was replying to a post in which tejas was attacked for admitting he was new to the world of extraction measurements, and then went on to mention that AndyS sounded ... hostile (to paraphrase). It was merely a reminder that a person doesn't need to have experience in measuring extraction in order to note that someone is behaving poorly. :-)

Mark, I'm not going to repost what I'd written, mostly because I don't remember exactly what I said. I understand your actions in deleting it, though I would have preferred that you had moved the comment instead of just deleting it. I hope mine was one of the posts that you "really didn't want to delete", because I didn't intend to be hostile or antagonistic.

I'd like to mention that I have appreciated Alan's presence here greatly - thank you for giving him the extra latitude. It led to an environment that fostered the open exchange of ideas, and made me a regular visitor to this site for years. CG truly is an excellent resource, though it is unfortunate that the previous thread degraded so badly that CG has now lost a star contributor - even if some of that contribution included self-promotion. So I'd like to thank you for both creating the site, and allowing the situation that led to such fruitful and robust discussion.

Beyond that, I'd also like to second EVERYTHING that SlowRain has said.

CoffeeRoastersClub
Senior Member

Joined: 6 Jul 2005
Posts: 2,515
Location: Connecticut
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: Vintage La Pavoni Lever...
Grinder: KitchenAid Pro Line Burr...
Vac Pot: Vintage Silex
Drip: Aeropress, French Press
Roaster: "Little Tyke" BBQ Drum,...

Posted Thu Nov 5, 2009, 10:29pm Subject: Re: Aeropress owner and CoffeeGeek.

SlowRain Said: Mark, I'm one of the people who sent an email. I don't know how much of a discussion you want about this, but I'll post my thoughts in this thread. Finances and science aside, my overall stance on this is a matter of principle. Two people engaged in a discussion about an issue they both believed in strongly. Both people were equally convinced of the correctness of their beliefs. Both people were frustrated at the other's refusal to "see the light". I don't think people are taking that last fact into account because one of the people involved restrained themselves admirably. Everyone is talking about the frustration Andy feels at having to put up with Alan, no one is considering how frustrated Alan feels--after all, both feel they are equally correct. I'm going to say it again: Alan is just as frustrated as Andy. So with that in mind, we have two people, equally convinced of their opinions and equally frustrated, engaging in a discussion. One of those people was professional and tactful, one of those people was not. I don't even have to use names for you or anyone to be able to identify the unprofessional and tactless one. Regarding science: Provide a forum for free discussion of ideas. Let each person put forward their ideas in a non-hostile manner. Let each person respond to the other's ideas in a non-hostile, non-condescending, and non-snobbish manner. Let the users of Coffee Geek read the comments, test out the ideas, and arrive at their own conclusions. Along the way, new ideas and innovations will come up as direct and indirect results of all the discussion and experimentation going on. I think, thus far, you have done a good job providing the forum and allowing freeness of discussion. Alan has done a good job putting forward his ideas in a non-hostile manner. Do I need to mention the actions of the other party involved? Andy may be 100% correct, Alan may be 100% correct, they both may be varying degrees of correct: it really doesn't matter because it is, ultimately, up to the users of Coffee Geek and owners of coffee businesses to decide for themselves based on their own results. Regarding finances: I think Coffee Geek, in the long run, has benefited more from Alan's presence than what would have been the case had he not been here. How many people continually say they found this forum because they did a search on Mazzer Super Jolly, Rancilio Silvia, AndyS, Mark Prince, etc? Other than a generic search for coffee discussion forums, I'll bet the AeroPress is your second-biggest traffic producer. That is definitely worth something financial to Coffee Geek and something not to be overlooked when discussing Alan's presence here. Alan has benefited too, and I'm glad. It seems everyone has benefited... ...well, everyone has benefited, perhaps except for the status quo. Just to be correct I rechecked the definition of status quo in a dictionary, and in the broadest and narrowest definitions of the concept, Alan is challenging the status quo. There must always be a place for challenging the status quo in a non-hostile manner. It leads to transparency--a word third-wave coffee loves to throw around--and promotes fresh thinking. Show me an inefficient, sluggish, out-dated industry, and I'll show you an industry that, for one reason or another, is scared of, criticizes, or otherwise stifles dissent. Alan can be 100% wrong, but I support his right to present his ideas without being insulted. No one deserves to be treated the way he was. I may not agree with him, but I will, metaphorically speaking, pay his legal bills to take his case to the highest coffee authority, even if I then sit on the other side of the courtroom. (I should note that I think the very idea of a coffee authority is absurd.) There was one person in the general AeroPress thread who made a good point, albeit in a hostile manner rather reminiscent of Andy's posts. He said--and I'm paraphrasing here--that just because people may not be experts in the world of coffee, that doesn't mean they don't understand social skills. To add my own comment: Humanity must come before everything else. Posted November 5, 2009 link Here here. Well said. Len

www.CoffeeRoastersClub.com www.BeanVillage.com My blog: http://coffeeroastersclub.caffeblog.com

MarkPrince
Moderator

Posted Thu Nov 5, 2009, 11:38pm Subject: Re: Aeropress owner and CoffeeGeek.

I'm obviously too close to this all, and cannot remain objective, as hard as I try. I do admit my moderation of the forums the last few days was heavy handed, something I'm very loathe to do (and something I hold other moderators accountable for). I've spent years of my life trying to advance the art and science of espresso. I constantly have to patiently correct mainstream media (in interviews and backgrounder info) when they believe that a stovetop moka pot produces espresso... or that espresso is a massive wallop of caffeine, or that a 20oz venti with a single shot is somehow culinary or specialty coffee (etc etc); and more recently, having to be in the position to defend against an increasingly popular product's marketing claims that it is an espresso machine (the Aeropress). Misinformation does not help advance the "barely out of the cradle" art and science of espresso. I judged in barista competitions in 2001, 2002, 2003. I've tasted world champion shots of espresso as far back as 2002, and I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt how far things have advanced - how Paul Bassett's winning shots in 2003 at the WBC would rank him 50th at the 2009 variant. We've come that far in just 6 years. But we could have been much further along if misconceptions and old realities of espresso died a quicker death. That all said, when it comes to this website, I almost always bow to the will of the majority. I walked away from Aeropress discussions (at least on a daily basis) in 2006 partially because people felt that, as the site owner, I was interjecting my will and opinions too much; I rarely interject anymore, and when I do, it's usually on some other venue (twitter, media, etc). If people feel I was too heavy handed with Alan, then I'll take that lesson to heart and try to do better in the future. But I still do not believe Andy was breaking our forum rules. Mark

Mark Prince, CoffeeGeek.com, CoffeeKid.com CoffeeGeek on Youtube: www.youtube.com/coffeegeek CoffeeGeek's Flickr Stream: www.flickr.com/photos/coffeegeek

kschendel
Senior Member

Joined: 7 Nov 2008
Posts: 147
Location: Pittsburgh
Expertise: I love coffee

Grinder: Maestro
Roaster: Freshroast

Posted Fri Nov 6, 2009, 5:26am Subject: Re: Aeropress owner and CoffeeGeek.

From a moderation standpoint, it might have been useful to break the Alan/Andy discussion out of the AP thread into its own thread, because it had not been about the Aeropress for several pages. I have no idea which of the two were right, but I have to agree with SlowRain: Andy's posts on the topic were tactless and bloody annoying, at best. If you're an expert, and you know you are right, and you can't convince the other guy, at some point you just post "Sorry you can't seem to understand my point, bye" and walk away. Andy's posts did nothing to advance the discussion; quite the contrary.

SlowRain
Senior Member

Posted Fri Nov 6, 2009, 6:12am
Subject: Re: Aeropress owner and CoffeeGeek.

Okay, you don't feel Andy was breaking the rules. Here's a link to where Alan mentioned it:

AlanAdler Said:

http://coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/447918#447918

"Hell, you can't even figure percentages correctly."
"Alan, please research more carefully before posting nonsense like you did above."

http://coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/449268#449268

"IMHO, antagonism is entirely appropriate."
"You still make the silly claim -- really just a blatant marketing ploy"
"You make the ignorant and absurd statement …."
"Utter nonsense."
"you simply display your lack of sophistication in coffee taste"
"you don't know what to say and you're afraid of embarrassing yourself"

http://coffeegeek.com/forums/coffee/machines/449840#449840

"Speaking personally, I have far greater tolerance for dissent when people actually know what they're talking about."

Posted November 4, 2009 link

I hope you will indulge me a bit here. I'm going to compose a reply to you using a paraphrasing of the above language. This is not a personal attack, it is just for illustrative purposes.

Mark, you can't even understand people correctly. What you said is utter nonsense, and you simply display your lack of social awareness. You still make the silly claim that Andy did nothing wrong, but it's really just a blatant example of you sticking up for your friend. You make the ignorant and absurd statement that his comments did not break the forum rules. Please, take some time to understand what common courtesy is before posting nonsense like this. You say that you're too close to all of this to remain objective, but you're really just afraid of embarrassing yourself. Hell, you can't even tweet properly.

Okay, my shameful display is over. Would you describe it as friendly? Hopefully, Beata doesn't read this before you. Read it out loud to her. Don't tell her it's just an example, tell her some guy intentionally criticized you. Would she describe what I wrote as friendly? Other Coffee Geek members can try the same thing with their significant others. Is there anyone out there who would describe the above passage as friendly?

I'm pursuing this not simply because I think you were heavy-handed with Alan--although I do think you were a little. I'm pursuing this because I think you were too lenient with Andy. This whole forum, along with the lives of the moderators, would run so much smoother if there was a little less hostility, snobbery, antagonism, elitism, etc. I welcome any and all efforts in improving this area.

So, if you deem the above comments appropriate and that they don't break any of the forum rules, then I will start using them myself when engaging in discussions where people have caused me frustration. I'll let you discuss it with the other moderators. Right now is Friday night where I am, Friday morning in North America. I'll give you the weekend to discuss it. Starting Monday, if there are no objections from you, I will start using those phrases. I will also provide a link back to this thread just so the people I'm criticizing know that my words are deemed friendly. If it's okay for AndyS when he's frustrated, then it's okay for SlowRain when he's frustrated, wouldn't you agree?

I also think using the above language is counterproductive when trying to combat misinformation. If we take up a collection and buy you an ad in the New York Times, would you let me write something for you using the above language? I want you to sign your name to it and put your website on it as well. How much good do you think that kind of language would do in combating misinformation? Would it have a positive or negative effect, both for your website and the specialty-coffee industry? I have no idea why it was used in that thread in the first place, but I'm pretty sure it garnered a lot more support for Alan than it did for Andy.

Finally, I think I have to apologize to rhyven. I may have confused you with a different user who stated that Andy seemed like a jerk.

gt
Senior Member

Joined: 29 Jan 2007
Posts: 182
Location: Mpls/St Paul MN
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: None
Grinder: Virtuoso
Vac Pot: Hario TCA-5
Drip: Clever Coffee Dripper
Roaster: P1 w/ 2 variacs

Posted Fri Nov 6, 2009, 6:25am
Subject: Re: Aeropress owner and CoffeeGeek.

kschendel Said:

Andy's posts did nothing to advance the discussion; quite the contrary.

Posted November 6, 2009 link

Hey Andy was the only one that stood up and challenged Alan and I'd like to thank him for that. Without Andy's posts, Alan would have had a free rein to promote his method for calculating extraction that greatly favors his product.

This is just my opinion but I think that over 50-60 years the coffee industry has concluded that when extraction is 19-20% the best cup results. Alan's recommended AeroPress method falls 2-3 percentage points below this range, thus he is trying to redefine the accepted method for calculating extraction.

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