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Sleepless
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Posted Thu May 5, 2005, 5:16pm
Subject: nuclear proliferation movie link
 

Ben Cohen of Ben and Jerry's Ice Cream fame gives a sobering look at the insane nightmare that is our nuclear arsenal.

click here

- Steve

 
"I love deadlines.  I love the whooshing sound they make as they go by"
- Douglas Adams
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Posted Thu May 5, 2005, 5:59pm
Subject: Re: nuclear proliferation movie link
 

It's things like this that frustrate me, especially when I keep hearing things like "Democrats are just as bad as Republicans"

It just isn't true. Republicans are beholden to defense contractors far, far more than Democrats. Therefore, the GOP has to keep funding this nonsense to remain in power. They are also geniuses when it comes to deflecting the issue. When Clinton tried to cut spending, the GOP attacked him as being anti-military, and the uninformed voters bought into it hook line and sinker in 2000. The Democrats have consistently proposed programs to cut defense spending in order to help cut the deficit. But instead, the GOP has proposed cutting social programs. Where is the outrage from all the conservatives? How can someone justify voting for a party that has these types of values? Why do conservatives keep deflecting this issue?

We don't need all these missiles anymore. They will not protect us from Al-Qaeda.
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Sleepless
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Posted Thu May 5, 2005, 6:20pm
Subject: Re: nuclear proliferation movie link
 

sdw Said:

It's things like this that frustrate me, especially when I keep hearing things like "Democrats are just as bad as Republicans"

It just isn't true. Republicans are beholden to defense contractors far, far more than Democrats. Therefore, the GOP has to keep funding this nonsense to remain in power. They are also geniuses when it comes to deflecting the issue. When Clinton tried to cut spending, the GOP attacked him as being anti-military, and the uninformed voters bought into it hook line and sinker in 2000. The Democrats have consistently proposed programs to cut defense spending in order to help cut the deficit. But instead, the GOP has proposed cutting social programs. Where is the outrage from all the conservatives? How can someone justify voting for a party that has these types of values? Why do conservatives keep deflecting this issue?

We don't need all these missiles anymore. They will not protect us from Al-Qaeda.

Posted May 5, 2005 link

In this case, I think pointing fingers will just turn people off.  Every recent administration has been involved in the buildup of our military based economy.  If you have an hour and forty minutes, you can watch an award winning (woo hoo!) show that was broadcast on the BBC March 23, 2005 at why we fight

- Steve

 
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sdw
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Posted Thu May 5, 2005, 8:05pm
Subject: Re: nuclear proliferation movie link
 

That just isn't true. That's what's so frustrating to me. The Clinton Administration was radical in its proposals to cut our arsenals and frivolous defense spending. Gore was proposing a continuation of that while shifting the emphasis towards intelligence and a broader Middle East policy coupled with a stabilization of Eastern Europe.

The GOP disagreed. If that turns people off, then it means they don't want to admit that the GOP is to blame. If they choose to ignore it based on party loyalty, why should that be acceptable? Americans are notorious for not being willing to admit complicity in wrong doing. Look at the British elections. Tony Blair, for all his faults, isn't a coward like Bush is. Blair is secure enough to get in front of people who don't like him and tell him to his face that he was dishonest. Bush would never do that. He can't name one mistake he's made. He's a great example of the typical American who can't admit a mistake. It sickens me to no end. Did anyone see Blair's town meeting? Bush is a lightweight by comparison. He'd never have the stones to be in a room with opposing opinions. The really disgusting thing is that no one cares about stuff like this. There's a deafening lack of outrage.

I refuse to ignore the failings of my party, and by acknowledging them I hope to change them for the better. Why doesn't they other side do the same?

A strong military is essential for America's security. But the two parties have radically different philosophies as to how to implement our strength. Given the way things are, people would be hard pressed to give evidence that the GOP's way is working.
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onocoffee
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Posted Fri May 6, 2005, 5:11am
Subject: Re: nuclear proliferation movie link
 

I think it's interesting how people on either side try to make the most complicated stuff seem so simple.  As though one group of politics is "worse" than the other.

Regardless of the party, Americans are getting screwed.

Ben & Jerry's video was interesting. Sure six bombs might be enough to wipe out Mother Russia, but we're Americans - we're not interested in just beating the enemy, we want to crush them altogether.  Obliterate.  Vaporize.  It's been the God Given Right of every nation of power throughout the history of Man.

All that money that could be saved by scrapping our arsenal of weapons of mass destruction (notice how they didn't use that term) for education and health care (notice how they used children as the keyword to make it important) - so what?  America has been a nation of exploitation since its' beginnings.  Sweatshops, child labor, no health care, no social programs - this nation is about money and power.  The have and the have nots.  It's novel that in our "enlightened" times we want to worry about the environment, social welfare and children to the point that we believe these same people who we expect to go forth and decimate our enemies are incapable of drinking alcoholic beverages.

To me, it's the simple-minded who try to break it down to an Us v. Them, Democrat v. Republican kind of thing.  People who are too eager to absolve themselves of the blame and place that on others.
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sdw
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Posted Fri May 6, 2005, 7:52am
Subject: Re: nuclear proliferation movie link
 

onocoffee Said:

To me, it's the simple-minded who try to break it down to an Us v. Them, Democrat v. Republican kind of thing.  People who are too eager to absolve themselves of the blame and place that on others.

Posted May 6, 2005 link

I guess it's equally simple-minded when you ignore the part where I said
"I refuse to ignore the failings of my party"

There is fault everywhere. But it's not all equal.
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brianmch
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Posted Fri May 6, 2005, 8:48am
Subject: Re: nuclear proliferation movie link
 

sdw Said:

I guess it's equally simple-minded when you ignore the part where I said
"I refuse to ignore the failings of my party"

There is fault everywhere. But it's not all equal.

Posted May 6, 2005 link

Bull.  The fault certainly is equal.  

Both parties have an equal interest in at least two things that will NEVER permit change:

Campaign finance reform.  Dems and Rep's are equally unwilling to get corporate money out of politics.  Both parties are equally on the take, and as such, both equally suck.

Local, state, and federal laws that eliminate real competition from 3rd parties in all levels of government.  I've worked to get third party candidates on ballots and it's IMPOSSIBLE.  

Real change can come about from just these two things.  But if these two don't happen, it'll never change.

Both parties will continue to bring up issues to deflect us from the real problem, that our elected officials don't represent us.  

Even those who want to reform government issues that need addressing manuiplate data to make it sound true, when in fact, it isn't.  

Ben (in the Oreo video clip on TrueMajority) makes certain comments concerning school funding and child welfare/healthcare, etc.  The individual states, at least Missouri and Kansas, fund K-12 education and child healthcare.  That's what local real estate taxes are for.  The Missouri Legislature is in a big fight now over child and even adult healthcare, not federal government.  

While not "sinister", Ben's comments are misleading.  Granted, I make mistakes all the time, but he doesn't accurately represent the situation.      

(Flame shorts on, and retreating behind the nearest large rock)

Brian
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sdw
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Posted Fri May 6, 2005, 8:54am
Subject: Re: nuclear proliferation movie link
 

Well, I do disagree about the fault issue, but I agree with everythng else.
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expobar
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Posted Fri May 6, 2005, 4:07pm
Subject: Re: nuclear proliferation movie link
 

He's not Ben from Ben and Jerry's!  Ben and Jerry sold the company a long time ago.  While what he is saying is true, he's making a big mistake by misrepresenting himself.
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cafedj
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Posted Fri May 6, 2005, 7:24pm
Subject: Re: nuclear proliferation movie link
 

I would disagree that it's "a big mistake" for Ben Cohen to identify himself with the company that bears his name, and to a substantial degree still promotes his philosophy.

You should get some sort of award for finding the tiniest nit to pick, particularly in the context of his message.
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