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Using Zerowater, Raising TDS
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Discussions > Espresso > Q and A > Using Zerowater,...  
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dewmaster07
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Joined: 21 May 2014
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Location: GA
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Posted Sun May 25, 2014, 4:59am
Subject: Re: Using Zerowater, Raising TDS
 

barkingburro Said:

But wait, there's more:

buy this

I'm in a similar situation. So I'm going to buy a small bottle, try adding drops to my water, and see what it tastes like when the TDS hits 150ppm. You'll probably want to see this page as well:

read this

The more I read about this product, the better it looks. Minimal ingredients, no weird additives or flavorings, etc.

****** EDIT ******

Just placed my order on Amazon (free shipping). Hope this stuff works.

Posted May 24, 2014 link

Would you mind posting back with a review after you test the product since you have already ordered?

You may be on to something with this "elete," product.  I suppose if you are mixing RO/Distilled water with this additive then I could produce the same result as you.  Elete does not describe how much the TDS will be raised based off the number of drops at least I could not find that information.
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dewmaster07
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Joined: 21 May 2014
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Location: GA
Expertise: I live coffee

Posted Sun May 25, 2014, 5:03am
Subject: Re: Using Zerowater, Raising TDS
 

barkingburro Said:

Well, after all that, I think I may have jumped the gun. The Elete product doesn't appear to contain any calcium. But it still might be effective. Time to research effect of calcium on coffee brewing...

Posted May 24, 2014 link

The research continues and adds to my frustration thus... this thread was formed.
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dewmaster07
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Expertise: I live coffee

Posted Sun May 25, 2014, 5:10am
Subject: Re: Using Zerowater, Raising TDS
 

ChungTeng Said:

Every time I brew my coffee, I only use my Reverse Osmosis or Distilled water, as I always try to avoid Chlorine, Fluoride, chemicals, heavy metals, drugs, pesticide and herbicide etc to achieve optimal health! Just as my Heavenly Father( God ) He gave rain the purely H2O! :-)

Posted May 24, 2014 link

This thread is about how using Reverse Osmosis or Distilled water creates a subpar cup of espresso and coffee.  There is also extensive research on the web which states that using this water absorbs impurities from objects it comes in contact with such as plastics, metals and minerals.  This water is also said to absorb minerals from your body when you drink it and that it removes these minerals from your body.  Also over time this water can prematurly dammage machines becuase the water continuously draws metals out of the machine in an acedic type way.

It is possible you are doing more harm to your body than good, but it is certain that you are making a flat cup of espresso/coffee.  I have tested this myself.
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barkingburro
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barkingburro
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Posted Sun May 25, 2014, 7:38am
Subject: Re: Using Zerowater, Raising TDS
 

dewmaster07 Said:

Great read, however the conclusion that I got was a cocktail recipie for good quality water without the instructions to produce it.  The article did not specify which product/s to use and how much would raise the TDS.

Posted May 25, 2014 link

Actually, the author did specify everything. The recipe he gives simply says to combine the ingredients, which can be obtained from various types of suppliers he mentions. He also told you up front that he is trying to duplicate the good taste of waters that he measured to have 35ppm TDS, and if you take the total weight of dry ingredients and divide by the water content (grams/liter) in his concentrate, you'll get 3.5g/liter = 3500mg/1000g. Then adding 10g of the concentrate to another liter of water further dilutes it by a factor of 10g/1000g, or 1/100, giving a final yield of 35mg/1000g, or 35mg/1,000,000mg. In other words, 35ppm.

By the way, I have what I consider to be the best tasting water I've ever sampled, coming out of my home filter. The total TDS is roughly 30ppm. I will assert that the best tasting water no doubt does not make for the best tasting coffee, based on SCAA's results. But what really surprises me is that the blind tasting distinguished between 125ppm, 150ppm, and 175ppm. Really? Do you think the same test is repeatable for different brew methods, like French press, or siphon, or Trifecta? I really wish they'd try again, and include tasters who don't eschew coffee with full body that hasn't been filtered through paper for "optimal clarity". I do wonder if the precision of 150ppm perfection doesn't break down when other variables are tweaked. Still, how can one go wrong, if one shoots for that same result?

I'll definitely report back when I've had a chance to try the electrolytes.

 
- Michael
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barkingburro
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barkingburro
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Posted Sun May 25, 2014, 8:33am
Subject: Re: Using Zerowater, Raising TDS
 

dewmaster07 Said:

Elete does not describe how much the TDS will be raised based off the number of drops at least I could not find that information.

Posted May 25, 2014 link

Let's see, a serving is 1/2 tsp, and contains: 45 mg Magnesium, 390 mg Chloride, 20 mg Sulfate, 125 mg Sodium, and 130 mg Potassium. So that would be a total of 710 mg of dissolved solids per half tsp of concentrate.

To get close to 150 ppm TDS, I would need to add that half tsp to approx. 4,700 grams of water.

710 mg/4,700,000 mg = 151 ppm

4,700 grams of water = 4.7 liters, so for my Trifecta, which uses just 12 oz., and I always do a water-only pre-cycle, so 24 oz. total... it looks like I would need to mix up just a drop or two of concentrate for 24 oz. -- 1/13 of a tsp, to be precise.

Having said all that, I'm probably off in my assumptions, but not by enough to dissuade me. The total amount of concentrate needed is likely in the correct order of magnitude--just a few drops.

****** EDIT ******

I should mention that I have a cheap TDS meter, which is how I plan to verify the 150 ppm TDS. I hope it's accurate enough to get me in the right ballpark.

 
- Michael
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dewmaster07
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Posted Sun May 25, 2014, 9:44am
Subject: Re: Using Zerowater, Raising TDS
 

barkingburro Said:

Let's see, a serving is 1/2 tsp, and contains: 45 mg Magnesium, 390 mg Chloride, 20 mg Sulfate, 125 mg Sodium, and 130 mg Potassium. So that would be a total of 710 mg of dissolved solids per half tsp of concentrate.

To get close to 150 ppm TDS, I would need to add that half tsp to approx. 4,700 grams of water.

710 mg/4,700,000 mg = 151 ppm

4,700 grams of water = 4.7 liters, so for my Trifecta, which uses just 12 oz., and I always do a water-only pre-cycle, so 24 oz. total... it looks like I would need to mix up just a drop or two of concentrate for 24 oz. -- 1/13 of a tsp, to be precise.

Having said all that, I'm probably off in my assumptions, but not by enough to dissuade me. The total amount of concentrate needed is likely in the correct order of magnitude--just a few drops.

****** EDIT ******

I should mention that I have a cheap TDS meter, which is how I plan to verify the 150 ppm TDS. I hope it's accurate enough to get me in the right ballpark.

Posted May 25, 2014 link

Seems too simple, but I'll eagerly await your review of Elete.  I too have a cheap TDS meter that came with the Zerowater pitcher.  Any idea the scale build up qualities this mixture could produce?
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dewmaster07
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Joined: 21 May 2014
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Location: GA
Expertise: I live coffee

Posted Sun May 25, 2014, 9:50am
Subject: Re: Using Zerowater, Raising TDS
 

barkingburro Said:

I will assert that the best tasting water no doubt does not make for the best tasting coffee, based on SCAA's results. But what really surprises me is that the blind tasting distinguished between 125ppm, 150ppm, and 175ppm. Really? Do you think the same test is repeatable for different brew methods, like French press, or siphon, or Trifecta? I really wish they'd try again, and include tasters who don't eschew coffee with full body that hasn't been filtered through paper for "optimal clarity". I do wonder if the precision of 150ppm perfection doesn't break down when other variables are tweaked. Still, how can one go wrong, if one shoots for that same result?.

Posted May 25, 2014 link

I definitly believe the human pallet can determine between 125, 150, and 175 TDS.  I can tell the difference between 0, 21, and 42 TDS as it relates to brewed espresso/coffee.  0 being Zero water.  21 being a half a half mix of zero water and tap water, and 42 being the TDS in my tap water.  I currently do not have a way to test water with higher levels of TDS.  I am sure every variable employed in making the coffee/espresso effects the TDS level/Extraction etc...  Maybe 150TDS is a threshold variable that once you exceed this it has an entirely differnet affect on the flavor atributes of ground coffee beans.  

Know of any filtered/mineral water I could purchase with a TDS around 150?
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barkingburro
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barkingburro
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Posted Sun May 25, 2014, 10:21am
Subject: Re: Using Zerowater, Raising TDS
 

dewmaster07 Said:

Know of any filtered/mineral water I could purchase with a TDS around 150?

Posted May 25, 2014 link

The name Crystal Geyser comes to mind.

 
- Michael
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dewmaster07
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Joined: 21 May 2014
Posts: 12
Location: GA
Expertise: I live coffee

Posted Sun May 25, 2014, 3:35pm
Subject: Re: Using Zerowater, Raising TDS
 

barkingburro Said:

The name Crystal Geyser comes to mind.

Posted May 25, 2014 link

Purchased Crystal Geser 1 Gal.  

Measured TDS = 90

Its quite an increase from 42 TDS, more than double.

Any other mineral waters with a higher TDS around 150+
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barkingburro
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barkingburro
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Grinder: Baratza Preciso
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Posted Sun May 25, 2014, 8:43pm
Subject: Re: Using Zerowater, Raising TDS
 

yakster Said:

A very interesting video presentation by Maxwell Colonna-Dashwood can be found  here (TamperTantrum).  He's working on a book with Christopher H. Hendon and Lesley Colonna-Dashwood but also has released the first of a series of scientific papers which can be found by following some links from here (Colonna And Smalls Blog).

I read the first scientific article, "The Role of Dissolved Cations in Coffee Extraction," but it was over my head.

Posted May 22, 2014 link

Yakster, that first link is the best explanation of ideal water composition I've seen yet. It validates several of my observations, while going deeper into the same questions that I've been pondering in this thread. Awesome stuff!

Well, now I can say that dewmaster07 should not be too eager to find a high TDS bottled mineral water. The problem discussed in the video linked by yakster is the presence of buffering in addition to the hardness solids. The speaker, Maxwell Colonna-Dashwood, says that just about all natural mineral waters will have way too much buffering, which will neutralize all the acids, making the coffee taste flat.

I also found another answer to one of dewmaster07's questions. No, the Elete solution will not impact scaling in the slightest. Calcium is the main cause of scaling.

So now it's time for me to research buffering. Unfortunately, I have a feeling that Elete will prove to be too heavy on the buffering side, as it is way salt-heavy, compared to hardness molecules. Salt is essentially how one buffers aquarium or pond water to maintain higher alkalinity, prevent sudden shifts toward acidity, and to also retard algae growth. I can guess that any electrolyte solution will have too much salt. In any case, I'll look next at Evian, which Maxwell said had extremely high buffer content, and see what the chemical composition of said buffer is.

 
- Michael
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