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Discussions > Espresso > Q and A > 25 Seconds....  
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bendyminge
Senior Member


Joined: 3 Jan 2014
Posts: 9
Location: Manchester
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Sun Jan 5, 2014, 9:27am
Subject: Re: 25 Seconds....
 

Thanks for that. I've been reading up on both of these mods all day and have ordered both steam wand and bottomless PF, so I'll report back once done.

Thanks for your help guys, much appreciated. Cheers Ben.
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D4F
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 2,007
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Baratza Forte-AP
Posted Sun Jan 5, 2014, 1:52pm
Subject: Re: 25 Seconds....
 

Just to be clear, you did not need a bottomless, but may have wanted it :)  You do need a non-pressurized double basket, perhaps will come with the bottomless.

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
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emradguy
Senior Member
emradguy
Joined: 31 Mar 2011
Posts: 3,056
Location: Houston
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Duetto II; Twist v2
Grinder: M Major, Macap M4 x2, VDD...
Drip: Espro presses; Aeropress
Roaster: H-B "List of Favorites"
Posted Sun Jan 5, 2014, 5:49pm
Subject: Re: 25 Seconds....
 

Though I agree a bottomless is not a need. It is a great tool for helping one get their distribution right.  I find it highly pleasurable to watch the extraction from the bottom…and in fact, cannot move past that aspect of the bottomless pf…not that I've tried all that hard :)  The bottomless pf will allow you to see channeling and areas of delayed or advanced extraction.  Heck, some of the members here even use a photo of the extraction for their avatar!

Also, be forewarned…they can be messy, especially in the beginning.  Sprites shoot out almost horizontally sometimes when you're learning and the spray can get on your skin, clothes, counter, walls and the machine body. If you've squatted down to look at the bottom of the basket and are close, you may even get one in the eye (though if you wear glasses that helps protect you).  The good news is, when you get a routine of good technique down pat, your spites become few and far between, and are usually small enough that they don't make a difference where it counts - in the cup.

 
.
Always remember the most important thing is what ends up in your cup!
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bendyminge
Senior Member


Joined: 3 Jan 2014
Posts: 9
Location: Manchester
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Mon Jan 6, 2014, 3:10am
Subject: Re: 25 Seconds....
 

A bottomless PF is just a want, but with reason. I'm essentially a massive geek when it comes to technology and as an engineer I love to see how things work and the idea of a bottomless PF goes someway to doing this. I know full well that this will be the starting point of another hobby (obsession) for my friends and family to groan and grumble at. "Why do you have to get SO into everything?!" :)
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brianl
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Dec 2012
Posts: 449
Location: Chicago IL
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic (w/PID)
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Drip: chemex
Posted Mon Jan 6, 2014, 7:04am
Subject: Re: 25 Seconds....
 

Sounds like you got the hario mini mill? I've never got it to work well for espresso but i hear it does. You're going to have huge arms using this. haha jk. Sounds like you understand the need for fresh ROASTED coffee. Don't buy into expiration dates as they are worthless.

Like others said, modifications that are pretty much needed in order

change OPV
change steam wand
install PID (gaggia is wildly inconsistent)

I can help along the way but there are actual guides with pictures on that gaggia group that was posted.
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bendyminge
Senior Member


Joined: 3 Jan 2014
Posts: 9
Location: Manchester
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Mon Jan 6, 2014, 3:00pm
Subject: Re: 25 Seconds....
 

Thanks brianl. Yeah, I got the Mini Mill in the post this morning and it did get pretty tiring, so hooked it up to my drill in the end just for kicks, but it was too hard to keep it at a low enough speed using the variable trigger, so back to manual! It'll have to do until the grinder fund is healthy enough. That said, it did make a great brew and I pulled a 25 second shot in the end!
I counted from the moment I flicked the switch though, is that correct?!
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Xeno
Senior Member


Joined: 2 Dec 2011
Posts: 23
Location: NYC
Expertise: Just starting

Espresso: Gaggia Classic
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Posted Mon Jan 6, 2014, 6:56pm
Subject: Re: 25 Seconds....
 

bendyminge Said:

Thanks brianl. Yeah, I got the Mini Mill in the post this morning and it did get pretty tiring, so hooked it up to my drill in the end just for kicks, but it was too hard to keep it at a low enough speed using the variable trigger, so back to manual! It'll have to do until the grinder fund is healthy enough. That said, it did make a great brew and I pulled a 25 second shot in the end!
I counted from the moment I flicked the switch though, is that correct?!

Posted January 6, 2014 link

Yup.  Use a timer!  If you don't have one, your cellphone should.
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brianl
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Dec 2012
Posts: 449
Location: Chicago IL
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic (w/PID)
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Drip: chemex
Posted Tue Jan 7, 2014, 8:03am
Subject: Re: 25 Seconds....
 

bendyminge Said:

Thanks brianl. Yeah, I got the Mini Mill in the post this morning and it did get pretty tiring, so hooked it up to my drill in the end just for kicks, but it was too hard to keep it at a low enough speed using the variable trigger, so back to manual! It'll have to do until the grinder fund is healthy enough. That said, it did make a great brew and I pulled a 25 second shot in the end!
I counted from the moment I flicked the switch though, is that correct?!

Posted January 6, 2014 link

thats a good place to start to see if youre in 'golden rule range'.

It helps to watch the extraction and eventually you'll know when it blondes. That's when you want to stop the pull (timer is just a guideline).
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boar_d_laze
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1,217
Location: Monrovia, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: La Cimbali M21 DT/1 Junior...
Grinder: Ceado E92; "Bunnzilla"
Vac Pot: Royal Coffee Maker
Drip: Chemex + Kone; Espro Press
Roaster: USRC Sample Roaster
Posted Tue Jan 7, 2014, 10:51am
Subject: Re: 25 Seconds....
 

As a rule the "golden rule" is a misnomer.  It's a sort of shortcut expression regarding espresso brew ratio, %TDS, yield, and a bunch of other technical stuff which requires some reading to understand; and some expensive gear to get (some of) the measurements right.  

Not trying to be confusing or make things complicated; but it's entirely possible to pull great shots which fall well outside the golden rule; and wretched shots which fall in the center of its "sweet spot."  That's partly (and only partly) because there are a lot of other things going on which can make a shot good or bad.

By way of a few examples, you can overdose and grind too coarse (under extraction); under dose and grind too fine (over extraction); grind too fine, but get channeling (mix of under and over extraction) brew way too hot (over extraction); or brew way too cold (under extraction), and still get golden rule times and volumes.  In other words, in order to work as a rule, the "golden rule" presupposes that you're doing everything else right.  

Sadly, if you're thinking in terms of the "golden rule" as a rule you really need to chase, you're probably too much of a noob to get good temps or good distributions.  The best you can say about the "golden rule" is that it gives you some insight into whether or not you might have a grind/dose/tamp issue.  

As a sort of golden rule about the golden rule... if:
  1. Your extraction times are way too short, you definitely have a problem -- most likely under extraction; and
  2. Your extraction times are too long, you may or may not have a problem.  But even if taste says "no problem," in the interests of consistency you may want to futz with grind and dose to try and get your shots consistent, while concentrating on good temp and distribution; and
  3. If there's one thing more important than any other, one thing you really want to keep consistent while you're futzing with grind and dose, it's the space between the screen and top of the puck, because it determines the depth of the coffee column in a given basket.  

The real espresso golden rule is that if it tastes like crap it is crap, and that means you're going to have to start looking for reasons; but if it tastes good, no matter what else is going on, fuhgeddaboudit.

BDL
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D4F
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 2,007
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Baratza Forte-AP
Posted Tue Jan 7, 2014, 11:57am
Subject: Re: 25 Seconds....
 

bendyminge Said:

That said, it did make a great brew and I pulled a 25 second shot in the end!
I counted from the moment I flicked the switch though, is that correct?!

Posted January 6, 2014 link

25 seconds can be from switch or from first drip and you will get opinions both sides. Consistency is most important.  I time from first drip and that is about 6 - 8 second after switch on Gaggia.  Since both spouts are from a center single spout, it does not really matter which side gets more.  Leveling may be part of the issue.  You can look and see if flow is even out of the screen.

What is in the cup counts and may be affected by various numbers.

I use about 17 - 17.5 gms coffee for about 30- 35 gms out put.  You can/should fill the basket until you just barely see a central indent in the wet puck.  The dry puck will be well below the screen.

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
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