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Triple ristretto and coffee weight?
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Discussions > Espresso > Q and A > Triple ristretto...  
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Blindpig
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Posted Wed Nov 20, 2013, 8:40pm
Subject: Triple ristretto and coffee weight?
 

We've recently upgraded our portafilters from spouted to bottomless. Our old baskets held 21 grams of coffee but our new baskets are very large and hold 25 grams if you fill them to the rim then level and tamp. I started experimenting with using this much coffee and have been able to create a nice sweet 2 oz shot in 25 seconds. I believe this is close to a triple ristretto though from doing some research and previous knowledge it seems like most people use 21 grams of coffee. Has anyone ever heard or have used 25 grams of coffee before. It does seem to fit in the basket quite nicely
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Coffeenoobie
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Posted Wed Nov 20, 2013, 8:54pm
Subject: Re: Triple ristretto and coffee weight?
 

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boar_d_laze
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Posted Thu Nov 21, 2013, 10:52pm
Subject: Re: Triple ristretto and coffee weight?
 

Pull is all about extraction ratio and degree of extraction.  You can control flow and time by balancing grind and dose.  As long as you keep the extraction ratio and degree constant you can increase dose and open grind (in a basket which allows the dose) without changing the character of the pull by much.  

Size of the pull, is -- of course -- controlled by size of the dose.  With a 21g dose, you should be able to pull what's nominally a ristretto in the 21g - 32g range; and with a 25g dose, the pulled ristretto should weigh 25g  - 37g.  Ish.  

While that's not enough to define the difference between a double and a triple for me, it could work for you.  

BDL
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Blindpig
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Posted Fri Nov 22, 2013, 6:05am
Subject: Re: Triple ristretto and coffee weight?
 

That helps.  We have a few baskets from our old portafilters that hold 21 grams.  I'm gonna pop them in and set the grind finer to see if i can achieve the same results.
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CoffeeLoversMag
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Posted Mon Nov 25, 2013, 7:09am
Subject: Re: Triple ristretto and coffee weight?
 

I think there’s nothing wrong if you use more than 21 grams if you are good enough to control or balance the flow in grinding and dosing coffee. Thus, everything lies in your control.

 
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andys
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Posted Mon Nov 25, 2013, 5:04pm
Subject: Re: Triple ristretto and coffee weight?
 

Blindpig Said:

Our old baskets held 21 grams of coffee but our new baskets are very large and hold 25 grams if you fill them to the rim then level and tamp. I started experimenting with using this much coffee and have been able to create a nice sweet 2 oz shot in 25 seconds.

Posted November 20, 2013 link

If you're happy with the result and you can handle the massive doses of caffeine, then by all means go with 25g dosing. But...just because the baskets hold a level 25g doesn't mean you need to use that much.

Think about "leveling" with a convex curved surface rather than a straightedge. That way you will uniformly remove some grounds below the rim and decrease dose. You can use Scottie Callaghan's tools or your own homemade version.

BTW, you may have noticed that coffees vary considerably in density, so a level 25g of one coffee can weigh a few grams more or less with a different coffee.

 
-AndyS
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boar_d_laze
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Posted Mon Nov 25, 2013, 6:54pm
Subject: Re: Triple ristretto and coffee weight?
 

andys Said:

Just because the baskets hold a level 25g doesn't mean you need to use that much.

Posted November 25, 2013 link

Yes and no.  Baskets and group heads can be quite fussy about how much headroom (space between screen and puck) works.  Too much or too little can be a problem.  So, in that sense the basket itself will be a big factor in the ideal dose.  

Think about "leveling" with a convex curved surface rather than a straightedge. That way you will uniformly remove some grounds below the rim and decrease dose.

The "Stockfleth maneuver" does much the same thing."  So does "NSEW" with a curved-bottom tamper.  

With all deference to the great Scotty Callaghan, a concave puck face is part of an idea whose time has passed.  Is anyone other than Callaghan still shaping the puck any way besides level?  

As a practical matter, good distribution will represent a few compromises dictated by your equipment.  My doser -- like many others -- puts "English" on the grunds.  It overloads the left side of the basket.  Consequently, I have to level with a slap shot when the basket has about 1/3 of the dose, to make sure there are no voids on the bottom; then finish filling and slap shot again before tamping.  No one else does that (nor, probably, should they).  There's nothing magic or even "right" about my ritual other than it's faster than a WDT, and works as well -- in my setup.

BTW, you may have noticed that coffees vary considerably in density, so a level 25g of one coffee can weigh a few grams more or less with a different coffee.

 Probably as much or more variance stems from other factors, like tightness of the grind, age of the coffee, humidity, etc.

Also, in my experience, dosing by leveling the untamped coffee to the top of the basket usually means too high a dose.  But, as I said, it depends on how close the basket rim is too the group head.  

BDL
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andys
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Posted Mon Nov 25, 2013, 8:16pm
Subject: Re: Triple ristretto and coffee weight?
 

boar_d_laze Said:

Baskets and group heads can be quite fussy about how much headroom (space between screen and puck) works.  Too much or too little can be a problem.  So, in that sense the basket itself will be a big factor in the ideal dose.  

Posted November 25, 2013 link

I agree, but any filter basket that requires a 25 gram dose to function properly should be tossed in the garbage. There are plenty of better choices around.


boar_d_laze Said:

The "Stockfleth maneuver" does much the same thing."  So does "NSEW" with a curved-bottom tamper.  

Posted November 25, 2013 link

Stockfleths yes, if one is well practiced. NSEW definitely does not.

boar_d_laze Said:

With all deference to the great Scotty Callaghan, a concave puck face is part of an idea whose time has passed.  Is anyone other than Callaghan still shaping the puck any way besides level?

Posted November 25, 2013 link

Yup, me, every day, based on feedback from (1) observing bottomless portafilter flow patterns, and (2) measurements of extraction yield efficiency. After the scrape-off with the convex tool I settle the grounds a bit by tapping the pf straight down on the countertop. This makes the grounds a little less concave.

I've been doing this for a while with what I think are good-tasting results. But based on your comment I'm going to experiment with some straight flat distribution again and compare.

boar_d_laze Said:

 Probably as much or more variance stems from other factors, like tightness of the grind, age of the coffee, humidity, etc.

Posted November 25, 2013 link

Please present evidence to support your claim that age of coffee and humidity change the density of espresso-ground coffee as much or more than the difference between a low-grown Brazil and a high-grown Kenya (both are obviously available nowadays roasted for espresso).

boar_d_laze Said:

Also, in my experience, dosing by leveling the untamped coffee to the top of the basket usually means too high a dose.

Posted November 25, 2013 link

Scratching my head here...isn't that what I said and you wouldn't go along?

 
-AndyS
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calblacksmith
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Posted Tue Nov 26, 2013, 7:16am
Subject: Re: Triple ristretto and coffee weight?
 

boar_d_laze Said:

With all deference to the great Scotty Callaghan, a concave puck face is part of an idea whose time has passed.  Is anyone other than Callaghan still shaping the puck any way besides level?  

Posted November 25, 2013 link

Yep, every day and every shot, works well and I have no reason to change. YMMV!
Actually the grooming is into a concave shape, the tamp is with a flat tamper, this gives me a little more compression around the edge of the basket and I have Zero side channeling while at the same time I have a nice even flow through the basket. Again, YMMV!

 
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