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Sour shots, help!
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Discussions > Espresso > Q and A > Sour shots,...  
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D4F
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 2,015
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Baratza Forte-AP
Posted Wed Jul 3, 2013, 4:31pm
Subject: Re: Sour shots, help!
 

If you read the long PID thread you will see that most of the function can be done by hand, steam switch.  You will have to wire the steam switch apart from the 3 way so that you can use it during the shot, and then stand there and be the PID, or put a PID on it.  I do not have an easy short synopsis on the thread but the video should show you that it can be done.  There are a couple of videos mentioned in the thread done by AndyPanda using the steam switch. The PID had not been used on Gaggia, that I could find, before that, to control intrashot.  The thought was that as you noted, PID algorithms could not control intrashot.  PID algorithms are too slow and for stability.  The controller that I used is not the normal one that Auber sells for PID espresso control, but the 1/16 DIN with 2 specific alarms.  One alarm controls steam and the other alarm controls heat with brew, the intrashot.  The Reader's Digest synopsis :)

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
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D4F
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 2,015
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Baratza Forte-AP
Posted Wed Jul 3, 2013, 4:38pm
Subject: Re: Sour shots, help!
 

RobCups Said:

I already have a thermocouple nicely positioned on the front of my boiler (a photo of my setup attached),

Posted July 3, 2013 link

A minor note, but I suspect a thermistor on the digital thermometer, vs thermocouple, vs RTD sensor.  You will see those terms if you think about PID and supplies.  Wiki or a similar source will explain better than I, and with less words :)

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
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brianl
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Dec 2012
Posts: 472
Location: Chicago IL
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill Vetrano DB
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Drip: chemex
Roaster: Behmor 1600
Posted Thu Jul 4, 2013, 9:56am
Subject: Re: Sour shots, help!
 

D4F has linked this thread but i would start here

Click Here (coffeegeek.com)

Then revisit the first half of the topic later on. I have included shopping lists and everything. I would start there and read most of it before starting as there are many clarifications later on that help.

Just note that if you buy the PID kit, you still have to install it so all it really does is provide the supplies and crimp the wires. Then again, they didn't have a kit that had the two alarms, like D4F mentions. One is used for the steam (triggered by steam switch) and the other deals with the intrashot (triggered by the brew switch). The intrashot switch just heats up the boiler to compensate for the colder water being  flushed into the boiler. To try and offset the drop. Really have to play with it but D4F (and myself) talk about good places to start in the topic.
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brianl
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Joined: 1 Dec 2012
Posts: 472
Location: Chicago IL
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill Vetrano DB
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Drip: chemex
Roaster: Behmor 1600
Posted Sat Aug 3, 2013, 9:06am
Subject: Re: Sour shots, help!
 

SO i received this

Click Here (cgi.ebay.com)

I finally put a 9v battery in there and it works. Do I need to insulate the tip of the k thermocouple or will the hot water from the espresso machine not damage it?

Essentially, Can i just drill a hole in the basket, stick wire it with some high temp epoxy, add coffee (or maybe just use all epoxy) and use it? or do I need to protect the wire in anyway. it appears to have heatshrink of some sort on it so i think it'd be okay but wanted to verify.

Additionally, do you prefer a hole in the side wall of the basket or directly in the bottom?
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RobCups
Senior Member


Joined: 28 Jun 2013
Posts: 11
Location: London
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic
Grinder: Eureka Mignon
Vac Pot: Hario TCA-2
Posted Sat Aug 3, 2013, 9:33am
Subject: Re: Sour shots, help!
 

It worked without anything covering the thermocouple bead, just be sure the wire is securely fixed to the basket.

I went for a hole low down the side of the basket. There was more room there between the wall of the basket and the wall of the portafilter handle. If you go through the bottom, the coffee will run down the wire and probably make a mess.

Good luck, and let us know how you get on!

Rob
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D4F
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 2,015
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Baratza Forte-AP
Posted Sat Aug 3, 2013, 9:37am
Subject: Re: Thermofilter
 

There is a thermofilter in the thread below with a thermocouple epoxied in.  Side or bottom on what is easy.  With a bottomless PF side is ok, more difficult if you have to exit from an uncut PF.  

Click Here (coffeegeek.com)  

Control of flow is a bit difficult and you may want to look below where hole size is discussed

Click Here (coffeegeek.com)

I did not do over the lip but you can also do that until the wire breaks.  If it does break, most just remove enough covering to get clear wires and just twist together.  You need a twist, not solder as solder introduces a different metal into the mix.  Some spark/arc weld the 2 wires.

Water will want to enter the shielding and go back along the wires so most clean off enough wire to epoxy the wire not the shielding.

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
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brianl
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Dec 2012
Posts: 472
Location: Chicago IL
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill Vetrano DB
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Drip: chemex
Roaster: Behmor 1600
Posted Sat Aug 3, 2013, 9:47am
Subject: Re: Sour shots, help!
 

so for the entire thing with epoxy and no coffee, is that the equivalent of doing a backflush? Seems like not much water makes it thru to the drip tray?
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D4F
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 2,015
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Baratza Forte-AP
Posted Sat Aug 3, 2013, 9:51am
Subject: Re: Thermofilter
 

You need flow out, not epoxy into a blind.  See hole size above.

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
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brianl
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Dec 2012
Posts: 472
Location: Chicago IL
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill Vetrano DB
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Drip: chemex
Roaster: Behmor 1600
Posted Sat Aug 3, 2013, 10:13am
Subject: Re: Sour shots, help!
 

RobCups Said:

It worked without anything covering the thermocouple bead, just be sure the wire is securely fixed to the basket.

I went for a hole low down the side of the basket. There was more room there between the wall of the basket and the wall of the portafilter handle. If you go through the bottom, the coffee will run down the wire and probably make a mess.

Good luck, and let us know how you get on!

Rob

Posted August 3, 2013 link

When you say that you did a 'diving board' in your instructions. Does this mean that your k couple wire runs on top of the coffee puck from the side drill entrance and then bends down into the coffee puck in the center?
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brianl
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Dec 2012
Posts: 472
Location: Chicago IL
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill Vetrano DB
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Drip: chemex
Roaster: Behmor 1600
Posted Sat Aug 10, 2013, 8:37am
Subject: Re: Thermofilter
 

So I tried with the epoxy putty in the single basket. I start the machine and the temperature doesn't go up and I know this is wrong. It just hovers around room temperature. safe to assume the k couple is busted?

Would it be possible to 'rent' your basket or if you could make me something? This is something i'm struggling with haha. I'd pay shipping of course. If not possible i'll just order some more k couples. Do you have a recommendation for use with the unit I posted that I had?
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