Our Valued Sponsor
OpinionsConsumer ReviewsGuides and How TosCoffeeGeek ReviewsResourcesForums
Espresso: Questions and Answers
Noooooob Needs Some Pointers
Cafe Solutions
Commercial sales and service, nationwide installation, equipment leasing options.
www.seattlecoffeegear.com
 
Not Logged in: Log In to Postlog in
New Topics updated topics   New Posts new posts   Unanswered Posts new unanswered  
Search Discussion Board search   Discussion Board FAQ faq   Signup sign up  
Discussions > Espresso > Q and A > Noooooob Needs...  
view previous topic | view next topic | view all topics
showing page 3 of 4 first page | last page previous page | next page
Author Messages
D4F
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 2,025
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Baratza Forte-AP
Posted Fri May 10, 2013, 11:26am
Subject: Re: Noooooob Needs Some Pointers
 

Thanks for the reply and link.

I think that we agree when taking into account static vs flow/dynamic pressures.  He says 11 bar and I have seen others saying 9.5 - 11 for static on Gaggia giving about 9 with flow.  With the gauge I found about 10+ static for 9 flow, but I probably was not as concerned with the actual number as getting the pressure down.  The machine is much more forgiving of grind, tamp, dose and technique at about 9 bar. Yes I learned at full pressure before adjusting, but found more sink (or milk) shots, and playing with grinder at factory pressure.  I think that factory high pressure is to take into account the pressurized PF is shipped and used.  Non-pressurized PF is included to US, not most countries for Gaggia.  If you are using non-pressurized do you need to learn pulls at settings for pressurized?  Again, I am suggesting 9 bar at flow through a puck simulator/valve.

We could look at pressure profiling on the Gaggia as AndyPanda and others have on CG.

John, I see that we share more than CG membership, espresso, and this thread, but not to hijack  :)

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
Whitcoatsyndrom
Senior Member
Whitcoatsyndrom
Joined: 25 Apr 2013
Posts: 178
Location: Roanoke, VA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Expobar Office Pulser
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Drip: Newco-OCS 12
Roaster: HG/BM
Posted Fri May 10, 2013, 8:38pm
Subject: Re: Noooooob Needs Some Pointers
 

All of this advice is very helpful.  Regarding other beginner baristas on their beginner machines...it helps a LOT to get your advice as well as more experienced people.  Let's make sure we aren't using noob as a pejorative term ;-)  Also, this may be a beginner machine, but this will be my beginner machine for a long time after I am no longer a beginner.  It'll be years before a machine upgrade and I'll tinker with PID and so forth before any of that happens (which is still years off)

As my father always told me growing up when I wanted new golf clubs bc my game was terrible--it's usually the Indian, not the arrow.  That being said, there is clear validity in altering the pressure and clearly different viewpoints on whether or not to do so.  I certainly think that I will adjust the pressure, I have multiple pressure gauges laying around from years of home-brew kegging so pressure adjustments are just something I gravitate towards.  BUT, I think I want to work on my base-foundation techniques, per your recommendation(s), so I may rule out my personal noob basic faults.  Based on the amount of time I've spent reading on how to tamp, adjusting the pressure and chasing a better shot via that rout logically comes a little down the road (although I doubt I'll be able to wait 14 months!).

I think the bottomless portafilter is probably something that will happen sooner than I thought.  Although it sounds like it wont solve my problems, after I get my tamping technique down I think it is a nice way to get a better look into the shot.  If for nothing else, it's great toy and looks to add enjoyment to this hobby (I hold the fun involved here in high regard).  I'll need to do some research on how much I'll have to spend for the portafilter without sacrificing quality.  I know all my stuff is on the low-cost side relative to everything else, but its still a big chunk of change.  

Right now I'm on a study-bender in the library :-( so I've been relegated to one double in the morning...not exactly a lot of time for practice.  However, starting Tuesday afternoon I'm free and will be pulling shots all day long.   I'll send in updates and until then, keep the advice coming!
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
D4F
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 2,025
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Baratza Forte-AP
Posted Fri May 10, 2013, 9:05pm
Subject: Re: Noooooob Needs Some Pointers
 

Why learn to use it with the pressure high only to fix it.  No extra credit for brewing at high pressure because we did it.  Noob fault, as you put it, might not be using the easier/smarter way.  Looks like you were smart enough to get to med school, adjust the pressure sooner, than later :)

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
Whitcoatsyndrom
Senior Member
Whitcoatsyndrom
Joined: 25 Apr 2013
Posts: 178
Location: Roanoke, VA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Expobar Office Pulser
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Drip: Newco-OCS 12
Roaster: HG/BM
Posted Fri May 10, 2013, 9:58pm
Subject: Re: Noooooob Needs Some Pointers
 

Thanks for the laugh, I'll be adjusting the pressure as soon as I can then.  I haven't gotten the grind exactly dialed in yet so its not like I wasted a ton of time on a grind that will probably need to be changed due to the pressure.  I'll let you know how it goes.
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
MatP
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Mar 2013
Posts: 42
Location: Southern California
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic
Grinder: Macap MXP
Roaster: Behmor 1600
Posted Sat May 11, 2013, 7:59am
Subject: Re: Noooooob Needs Some Pointers
 

Good morning everyone!

If anyone is interested in numbers: I just tried opening the circuit through the steam valve while measuring the pressure at the group. With a flow corresponding to a shot, the pressure drop from 138 psi to 130 psi, which corresponds to a drop from 9.5 bar to 8.96 bar. So I would say, spot on!

Time for another cup. Good weekend to all of you :-)

Cheers

MatP
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
jwoodyu
Senior Member
jwoodyu
Joined: 31 Dec 2010
Posts: 857
Location: Michigan
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Allex Duetto II
Grinder: Mazzer Major
Posted Sat May 11, 2013, 8:24am
Subject: Re: Noooooob Needs Some Pointers
 

Interesting. I like my Duetto at just under 9 bar flavor wise. It would seem then at least in the case of the classic the notion of 2 bars higher pressure due to the vibe pump does not hold. I wonder what the same test on other vibe machines would show.

 
Yes i have a reason for leaving SCG off my list, yes it is my opinion, yes it is subjective as opinions are by definition, no don't start a flame war because you disagree.
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
D4F
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 2,025
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Baratza Forte-AP
Posted Sat May 11, 2013, 9:06am
Subject: Re: Noooooob Needs Some Pointers
 

I went back and looked at some of the Gaggia OPV threads.  About 9.5 - 10 bar static for about 9 bar setting seems to work for the Classic with the 3-Way.  Without the 3-Way there is a spring valve in the outflow that requires pressure to open it and that seems additive from the description.  Gaggias without 3-Way seem to do well with static at about 10+.  That may account for the differences noted. Also some difference whether flow is 30 ml or 60 ml when setting and then measuring static.  We probably all aim for about 9 bar at the puck and many machines use vib pumps.  Some of the static setting may depend on valves and plumbing.

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
Whitcoatsyndrom
Senior Member
Whitcoatsyndrom
Joined: 25 Apr 2013
Posts: 178
Location: Roanoke, VA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Expobar Office Pulser
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Drip: Newco-OCS 12
Roaster: HG/BM
Posted Sat May 11, 2013, 11:37am
Subject: Re: Noooooob Needs Some Pointers
 

Thanks for the info, I'll aim for 9.5 bar then!
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
D4F
Senior Member


Joined: 15 Mar 2012
Posts: 2,025
Location: USA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID
Grinder: Baratza Forte-AP
Posted Sat May 11, 2013, 5:28pm
Subject: Re: Noooooob Needs Some Pointers
 

I reread the thread.  You may also have interest in a few of these items especially on a student budget.

I use these baskets and like them with about 17 - 17.5 gms.  That gives me a dry puck and an light indent in only the center of the wet puck.  Great price and read the description.

Click Here (www.espressoparts.com)

Reasonable blind for backflush.

http://www.espressoparts.com/EPF_156?&search_id=2074627

Measuring shot glass.  Just fits under the PF if you take the spout off.  The spout comes off with some difficulty and a vise.  Good to hold all of the crema that you will get.

http://www.espressoparts.com/EPMEAS?&search_id=2074628

Silvia wand

http://www.espressoparts.com/R_1054?&search_id=2074632

Look at PARTSSHIPFREE for details, very good prices with free shipping.

 
D4F also at
http://www.gaggiausersgroup.com/
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
Whitcoatsyndrom
Senior Member
Whitcoatsyndrom
Joined: 25 Apr 2013
Posts: 178
Location: Roanoke, VA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Expobar Office Pulser
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Drip: Newco-OCS 12
Roaster: HG/BM
Posted Sat May 25, 2013, 10:00am
Subject: Re: Noooooob Needs Some Pointers
 

Here is my update:

I did the pressure adjustment using a gauge purchased from Home Depot.  I wasn't expecting much accuracy from a sub-$15 pressure gauge and I don't think it was perfect.  The initial measurement came in at about 12 bar, which was less than I had expected from the factory based on what others have said.  Per the instructions recommended to me I started with 3/4 turn counterclockwise of the OPV, which put me near the realm of my goal which was between 9.5 and 10 bar static measurement.  Two more adjustments later at one full turn of the OPV I was at 10 bar static measurement.  I'm a little worried that the initial pressure from the factory was actually higher than 12 bar and that the measurement I took is a product of the inaccurate gauge.  If that's the case, my measured 10 bar post adjustment might be closer to 11 or 12 in reality.  I made a solid attempt at making sure there were no large air bubbles in the water circuitry but I guess I can't be positive I was free of them.  Does 12 bar from the factory seem oddly low for a GC?  All these measurements were taken with the gauge fitted to the PF.  

All that aside, my espresso is so much better.  You all did not lie, the machine is so much more forgiving and I get much less channeling.  Before I made the OPV adjustment I kept getting large swings in extraction time with very small changes to grind, and sometimes in a paradoxical direction.  I'm pretty sure this was due to a lack of tamping constancy (lack of experience) with a very unforgiving pressure.  Now that my tamp consistency is somewhat improved and the machine is more forgiving, I was really able to hone in on the grind necessary for the beans I'm currently using.  Right now I'm getting about a 26 second extraction for a 15.6 g pre-grind dose (which is probably 15.3 g in the PF if the measurements I used to take still hold), usually about 1.9_ oz measured in the cup.  The Baratza Preciso setting is a macro 7 micro E.

I am currently using some Old Crow Espresso blend from Red Rooster coffee roaster in Floyd VA, roasted May 18th.  I think its a bit on the light side of the roast and produces a cup a little brighter than I prefer.  Crema for the above settings is great by my current standards and is a big step from what I was doing (and many of my local coffee shops for that matter).  For giggles I ground some quality Ethiopian beans that were roasted 2 months ago and vacuum sealed.  I know for a fact that the beans were done blowing off their CO2 before sealing because there was no gas in the bag.  I can't explain why, but the crema that I got was tremendous, the most I've been able to pull.  I needed to coarsen the grind by one micro setting so it was a little over-extracted but I didn't expect very much crema at all...any ideas on what's going on there?

If anyone has input or advice for any of the above, I appreciate it as always.
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
showing page 3 of 4 first page | last page previous page | next page
view previous topic | view next topic | view all topics
Discussions > Espresso > Q and A > Noooooob Needs...  
New Topics updated topics   New Posts new posts   Unanswered Posts new unanswered     Search Discussion Board search   Discussion Board FAQ faq   Signup sign up  
Not Logged in: Log In to Postlog in
Discussions Quick Jump:
Symbols: New Posts= New Posts since your last visit      No New Posts= No New Posts since last visit     Go to most recent post= Newest post
Forum Rules:
No profanity, illegal acts or personal attacks will be tolerated in these discussion boards.
No commercial posting of any nature will be tolerated; only private sales by private individuals, in the "Buy and Sell" forum.
No SEO style postings will be tolerated. SEO related posts will result in immediate ban from CoffeeGeek.
No cross posting allowed - do not post your topic to more than one forum, nor repost a topic to the same forum.
Who Can Read The Forum? Anyone can read posts in these discussion boards.
Who Can Post New Topics? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post new topics.
Who Can Post Replies? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post replies.
Can Photos be posted? Anyone can post photos in their new topics or replies.
Who can change or delete posts? Any CoffeeGeek member can edit their own posts. Only moderators can delete posts.
Probationary Period: If you are a new signup for CoffeeGeek, you cannot promote, endorse, criticise or otherwise post an unsolicited endorsement for any company, product or service in your first five postings.
Support Coffee Kids
Coffee Kids is a non profit charity working with farming communities around the world. Donate today!
www.coffeekids.org
Home | Opinions | Consumer Reviews | Guides & How Tos | CoffeeGeek Reviews | Resources | Forums | Contact Us
CoffeeGeek.com, CoffeeGeek, and Coffee Geek, along with all associated content & images are copyright ©2000-2014 by Mark Prince, all rights reserved, unless otherwise indicated. Content, code, and images may not be reused without permission. Usage of this website signifies agreement with our Terms and Conditions. (0.28367805481)
Privacy Policy | Copyright Info | Terms and Conditions | CoffeeGeek Advertisers | RSS | Find us on Google+