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Extraction looks great, glupy red-brown, but goes pale and watery after 8-10 sec
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Discussions > Espresso > Q and A > Extraction looks...  
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kingoslo
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Joined: 24 Dec 2011
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Posted Thu Dec 13, 2012, 1:36am
Subject: Re: Extraction looks great, glupy red-br
 

Hello there,

I made today coffee supply with freshly roasted beans.

I did WDT, followed by manual distribution around the edges, and a simple straight tamp, no nutation. I feel like I made better coffee than usual. I could only get about 30 ml from about 14g before it ran very thin.

The puck looked more evenly distributed than normal, though slightly darker around the walls of the basket. I think the dose is about right.

Kind regards,
Marius
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emradguy
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emradguy
Joined: 31 Mar 2011
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Posted Thu Dec 13, 2012, 10:14am
Subject: Re: Extraction looks great, glupy red-br
 

sounds like you're making progress.  How long (in seconds) was the shot?

 
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kingoslo
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Posted Thu Dec 13, 2012, 11:44am
Subject: Re: Extraction looks great, glupy red-brown
 

Yes I think so too :) It was about 17 sec. Seems like a long way to go though.

I have been looking at this video a lot: http://youtu.be/hoq08YBASTc

He's got the same machine. I have carried out his technique, but I cannot achieve the same results. Is there something to learn from that, you think?M
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frank828
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Joined: 23 Feb 2011
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Posted Thu Dec 13, 2012, 5:21pm
Subject: Re: Extraction looks great, glupy red-brown
 

in that video he says the shot is a bit tight...but from what i see is that he is getting donut extractions and the center of his puck is extracting pretty slow compared to the outside.  He would probably benefit if he modified his distribution.  Maybe WDT.

i know i told you to try it before(tek's method), not sure if u gave it a try yet.

see if this helps.

Grind the amount of coffee you need directly into a small milk steaming pitcher.  After you have it all in there, give it a bit of a shake to get everything mixed up nicely and break up clumps.  Then somewhat carefully pour those grinds directly into your filter basket as evenly as you can.  Then level the coffee in the basket, give it a light tap or two straight down onto the counter and then tamp down straight.
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frank828
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Posted Thu Dec 13, 2012, 5:46pm
Subject: Re: Extraction looks great, glupy red-brown
 

kingoslo Said:

Yes I think so too :) It was about 17 sec. Seems like a long way to go though.

I have been looking at this video a lot: http://youtu.be/hoq08YBASTc

He's got the same machine. I have carried out his technique, but I cannot achieve the same results. Is there something to learn from that, you think?M

Posted December 13, 2012 link


17 seconds is a bit short.  try to adjust your grind finer to get closer to 25-30 seconds.  Personally(and at work) i like to extract about 1.5x the weight of the grounds.  So for example, your 14 gram dose, try to get 21 grams of fluid out from it.

i hope you have a decent scale(one that reacts fast and can do 0.1 gram increments) or this might get difficult to follow.
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Frost
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Frost
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Posted Thu Dec 13, 2012, 6:04pm
Subject: Re: Extraction looks great, glupy red-brown
 

kingoslo Said:

Yes I think so too :) It was about 17 sec. Seems like a long way to go though.

I have been looking at this video a lot: http://youtu.be/hoq08YBASTc

He's got the same machine. I have carried out his technique, but I cannot achieve the same results. Is there something to learn from that, you think?M

Posted December 13, 2012 link

That shot runs for 50+ seconds.... I would not be shooting for those results at all. Start with a standard 25-30 second double of ristetto to normale.
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kingoslo
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Posted Fri Dec 14, 2012, 1:55am
Subject: Re: Extraction looks great, glupy red-brown
 

frank828 Said:

Grind the amount of coffee you need directly into a small milk steaming pitcher.  After you have it all in there, give it a bit of a shake to get everything mixed up nicely and break up clumps.  Then somewhat carefully pour those grinds directly into your filter basket as evenly as you can.  Then level the coffee in the basket, give it a light tap or two straight down onto the counter and then tamp down straight.

Posted December 13, 2012 link

Dear Frank,

Yes I attempted this technique once a few days ago. I did again today. The subsequent brews were about the same both days. It runs alright for about 8-10 seconds. Then suddenly runs very blond. When shake the grounds in the basket, they compact slightly due to the violent motion of the pitcher. In the pitcher the grounds look nice and evenly distributed. However, when I distribute into the basket, clumps reform because the grounds were compacted slightly together.

If I grind finer, it is going to take a long time before the brew starts. Right now, after pressure has built, extraction starts after about 4 sec, very slowly, then goes blond after about 15 sec if I use WDT, hand leveling and straight tamp.

Thank you for your time.

Kind regards,
Marius
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frank828
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Posted Fri Dec 14, 2012, 2:17am
Subject: Re: Extraction looks great, glupy red-brown
 

watching your video again, you seem to be tamping down extremely hard.  

If you get a chance, try lowering your dose, grind finer and dont tamp as hard.  i say try to use as much pressure as you used at 1min22 of your video.  That extra "oomph" at 1 min 24 seems to be so you can compress your coffee down further.    You really shouldnt need that much force to get your coffee at the level you need.
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kingoslo
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Joined: 24 Dec 2011
Posts: 33
Location: OSLO
Expertise: I like coffee

Posted Fri Dec 14, 2012, 3:47am
Subject: Re: Extraction looks great, glupy red-brown
 

Dear Frank,

In the past, I was tamping between 30 and 40 lbs of force. I have calibrated myself using a scale. However, I did what you suggested, I ground finer, lower dose, WDT and straight tamp about 23 lbs, and the subsequent brew seemed to extract better for a longer time. I think the puck looked more evenly extracted too. The brews went on for about 20 sec each, and took about 7 seconds to begin extracting.

Kind regards,
Marius
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emradguy
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emradguy
Joined: 31 Mar 2011
Posts: 2,947
Location: Houston
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Duetto II; Twist v2
Grinder: M Major, Macap M4 x2, VDD...
Drip: Espro presses; Aeropress
Roaster: H-B "List of Favorites"
Posted Fri Dec 14, 2012, 8:36am
Subject: Re: Extraction looks great, glupy red-brown
 

Marius,

Each time I get to your thread, I see how much you've improved.  This is just great!

The description of the shot and puck analysis you give above makes me think you've got your distribution and tamp technique just about right where you want them.  If so, you now just need to focus on dose amount and grind fineness (only change one variable at a time).

I was also wondering if you're estimating the times or using a timer.  I keep reading your posts that say, "about x seconds"...making me think you're counting off seconds in your head.  If you're not using a timer, you should start, if not only because you're using time as one of your parameters in self-assessment.  Either a second hand on a wrist watch, or a small timer from a kitchen/housewares store will do the trick.  Great thing about the timers is you can often set them with a preset time and have them count down, then not worry about actually watching them so you can focus on the shot. I have a Taylor that I can set to any number of seconds or minutes, and then have it count down to zero at the press of a button. Pressing the button again stops it like a stop watch - it was about $10 US. You have to decide if you're going to start the timer when you set things in motion or when you see the first drip coming (there are varying schools of thought on this).  The main thing is to do it the same each time.  If your shots are now at 20 seconds, you might want to go ever so slightly finer on the grind or increase your dose slightly, maybe a half gram or gram (just know how much you do, so that you know where to adjust next).  

Ron

 
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Always remember the most important thing is what ends up in your cup!
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