D4F Senior Member Joined: 15 Mar 2012 Posts: 1,187 Location: USA Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID Grinder: Preciso
Posted Sat Apr 14, 2012, 2:42pm Subject: Re: What am I doing wrong with my Redbird?
Very unlikely on the wrong roast, or there would probably be a batch of complaints to go with the roast batch. Call/email Jeff at Redbird. Check the temp again, even if in the styrofoam cup. You have a frame of reference from past. Not sure why you don't raise the temp a couple of degrees and work back down.
JDHarding Senior Member Joined: 31 Aug 2007 Posts: 1,099 Location: WA, USA Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Ascaso Steel Pro PID Grinder: Nuova Simonelli MDX,... Vac Pot: None Drip: Hario v60 Roaster: Behmor, Fresh Roast
Posted Sat Apr 14, 2012, 3:47pm Subject: Re: What am I doing wrong with my Redbird?
Played around with the styrofoam cup again. Now the temp is set at 215F. When I pull water into the styrofoam cup at this temp, it shows up as 198-199F. This is after pulling water into the cup multiple times to heat everything up and get the thermometer in a higher temp for less wait time. Takes about 1-2 secs for it to register the correct temp now.
I'm a little worried keeping the boiler temp at 215F. Won't this damage the machine somehow? 215F is boiling temp, isn't it? Though I don't hear it boiling. Maybe it's 225F boiling temp.
Update:
Decided to pull some shots at 215F PID temp. It still doesn't taste right. Tastes kinda bitter now. I think the temp is too high.
I think I may know what's going on here. My machine has a relatively small boiler, and when the pump is run it pulls cold water in, which cools the boiler water down significantly while pulling a shot. Infact, the PID usually drops 15 degrees while pulling a shot. I think what's happening is I pull the shot correctly for the first so many seconds, and the temp is proper, but then the temp of the boiler water drops and I end up pulling the rest of the shot at a cooler temp, so I get a bunch of under-extracted coffee in the rest of my shot. I think that's why the color of the shot turns from dark brown to a lighter color so quickly, about 10 seconds in.
I guess I need to get my HX machine up and running soon. :/
D4F Senior Member Joined: 15 Mar 2012 Posts: 1,187 Location: USA Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID Grinder: Preciso
Posted Sat Apr 14, 2012, 4:29pm Subject: Re: What am I doing wrong with my Redbird?
I am not familiar with your machine, but I believe what is showing is SBDU. You can manipulate that temp by hitting steam switch for a few seconds prior to the shot. I run the PID on Gaggia at 222f, no steam. That is the temperature of the sensor at its location, not the water or even other parts of the boiler, group, or PF. Also, the PF can significantly cool the temperature if it cools while it is off the machine to fill. The styrofoam cup temp is reasonable if you preheat the thermometer, it typically can be a degree or two low, or more, depending on technique. I use a PID to turn on the heater with the pump, using the alarm function for that instead of using that second set temp for steam. If it seems over heated by taste, you can probably trust that, just do not talk yourself into that based on 215.
JDHarding Senior Member Joined: 31 Aug 2007 Posts: 1,099 Location: WA, USA Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Ascaso Steel Pro PID Grinder: Nuova Simonelli MDX,... Vac Pot: None Drip: Hario v60 Roaster: Behmor, Fresh Roast
Posted Sat Apr 14, 2012, 6:47pm Subject: Re: What am I doing wrong with my Redbird?
Just to rule it out, I wonder if pulling Redbird into a cold shotglass can cause it to taste bad. I was heating my glass, but the temp was so hot I couldn't drink the shot for a minute or more, so I started using a cold glass instead.
D4F Senior Member Joined: 15 Mar 2012 Posts: 1,187 Location: USA Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID Grinder: Preciso
Posted Sat Apr 14, 2012, 6:53pm Subject: Re: What am I doing wrong with my Redbird?
I thought "warm" was the idea. At about served temperature. It also depends on the mass of the container, vs the espresso mass, whether it heats or cools. I have gotten the container too hot and it seems to taste different, but I am not a luke warm coffee fan.
I have been playing with redbird too the past week (my first shipment). I use 16g for 30oz shot in 35-38sec at 93 celcius at grouphead. Not bitter, not sour. Chocolate and peanut. To extrapolate from the 53mm to 58mm portafilter; maybe something like 17g for 32-35sec for 30g shot.
JDHarding Senior Member Joined: 31 Aug 2007 Posts: 1,099 Location: WA, USA Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Ascaso Steel Pro PID Grinder: Nuova Simonelli MDX,... Vac Pot: None Drip: Hario v60 Roaster: Behmor, Fresh Roast
Posted Sun Apr 15, 2012, 12:58pm Subject: Re: What am I doing wrong with my Redbird?
It seems 210-212F is around the right temp. 215F makes it bitter, but 212F seems to make it taste okay. I still don't really taste chocolate. Mostly bright flavors. Citrusy flavors. But not really a sour taste, if that makes any sense.
I think I get some chocolate aftertaste, though. I can also taste the roast level in the aftertaste, but just barely.
I think lowering the dose from 20g to 18g may have actually made things worse. The first shot I did of this I had it dosed at 20g and it tasted more chocolatey then. Now it's mostly citrusy. And that's before I raised the temp 12 degrees.
What's weird is the first time I brewed this batch of Redbird I was in a hurry, only let the machine heat up 15 minutes, PID set at 200F, 20g dose, didn't even change the grind setting from my previous coffee beans, and yet I managed to brew a really good shot of this. Ever since it's gradually gotten more citrusy and less chocolatey. Go fig. :/
Update:
I made a 20g dosed shot just now. 212F PID temp, and I think 199-200F group temp. Whoo. That was an intense tasting shot. I'd say the closest thing to it is a mix of 70% cacao chocolate and some sort of citrus fruit. The aftertaste is incredibly strong. I still don't know if that's how it's supposed to taste or not, but I managed to get rid of the sour taste. 18-20g might be too high of a dose, which could be causing too strong of a citrus flavor. I mean 20g is closer to a triple, which should be pulled at a 3oz shot instead of a 2oz one. I could try doing a 14g 2oz shot and see how that tastes.
diggi Senior Member Joined: 28 Nov 2011 Posts: 382 Location: Halifax, NS Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Spaz vivaldi S1 V2 Grinder: B Vario, OE LIDO Drip: Chemex, Espro Press,... Roaster: Poppery I
Posted Sun Apr 15, 2012, 4:26pm Subject: Re: What am I doing wrong with my Redbird?
JDHarding Said:
Update:
I made a 20g dosed shot just now. 212F PID temp, and I think 199-200F group temp. Whoo. That was an intense tasting shot. I'd say the closest thing to it is a mix of 70% cacao chocolate and some sort of citrus fruit. The aftertaste is incredibly strong. I still don't know if that's how it's supposed to taste or not, but I managed to get rid of the sour taste. 18-20g might be too high of a dose, which could be causing too strong of a citrus flavor. I mean 20g is closer to a triple, which should be pulled at a 3oz shot instead of a 2oz one. I could try doing a 14g 2oz shot and see how that tastes.
Glad to hear you are making progress. Just realized that if you aren't weighing your shots, and that my previous 'recipe' is not all that helpful. For the dose of 16g (17g my recommendation to you) it is being pulled to 30g shot, which is close to 1 oz of fluid. I suspect this is a much tighter pull than what you are pulling. I'm not getting citrus, but I'm not seasoned to this yet. So, either stick with what you have now, which sounds better than before, or try to really grind finer, and pull into less volume.
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