JDHarding Senior Member Joined: 31 Aug 2007 Posts: 1,099 Location: WA, USA Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Ascaso Steel Pro PID Grinder: Nuova Simonelli MDX,... Vac Pot: None Drip: Hario v60 Roaster: Behmor, Fresh Roast
Posted Fri Apr 13, 2012, 11:56am Subject: What am I doing wrong with my Redbird?
I decided to make a new thread about this because I didn't want to go off-topic with the "Who can drink it straight?" topic.
I just got 5 lbs of Redbird espresso blend 2 days ago, and this is the 5th day from roast date. I've frozen most of it, but kept one baggy worth which I keep in an airtight mason jar.
I've been drinking my shots straight, and every time Redbird comes out sour. I'm not getting any chocolate flavor at all.
Here's how I pull my shot:
- Weigh the beans out, 18 grams, which I put into the grinder, then clean-sweep the grinder getting all 18 grams out into a cup. - Put a yogurt cup onto the bottomless portafilter to keep the grounds from going everywhere when I pour them into the basket. - Pour grounds into basket. - Tamp, straight down, no WDT or any of that stuff. A quick polish. - Machine has already heated for 30 minutes. PID says 200F. - Lock PF in the group, hit the brew switch, put cup under group, beautiful looking shot goes into 4oz shotglass. - Stop pull when I get 2oz, and timer says 30 seconds - Sip
Simple, right? The shot looks amazing, and I get no spritzing or any weird attitude from my bottomless, yet the shot itself tastes nasty. Sour. No bitter, just sour. Almost as if it's not Redbird. It also smells bright/acidic too. Like a Peaberry or Kenya.
Is it my method of pulling the shot, or could it be the beans themselves?
D4F Senior Member Joined: 15 Mar 2012 Posts: 1,223 Location: USA Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID Grinder: Preciso
Posted Fri Apr 13, 2012, 12:05pm Subject: Re: What am I doing wrong with my Redbird?
I feel bad, I think I mentioned the Redbird. Couple of thoughts. My Redbird Espresso has a definite nutty, peanutty smell in the bag. I am not great with aromas and all of the descriptive flavors, but it is my understanding that this is a trademark smell associated with Redbird.
Your PID is 200, or water temperature, or both. I know that you can set it up so that PID approximated water temperature at the head. I have about 201f out the head and it tastes great.
JDHarding Senior Member Joined: 31 Aug 2007 Posts: 1,099 Location: WA, USA Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Ascaso Steel Pro PID Grinder: Nuova Simonelli MDX,... Vac Pot: None Drip: Hario v60 Roaster: Behmor, Fresh Roast
Posted Fri Apr 13, 2012, 12:29pm Subject: Re: What am I doing wrong with my Redbird?
D4F Said:
I feel bad, I think I mentioned the Redbird. Couple of thoughts. My Redbird Espresso has a definite nutty, peanutty smell in the bag. I am not great with aromas and all of the descriptive flavors, but it is my understanding that this is a trademark smell associated with Redbird.
Your PID is 200, or water temperature, or both. I know that you can set it up so that PID approximated water temperature at the head. I have about 201f out the head and it tastes great.
JDHarding Senior Member Joined: 31 Aug 2007 Posts: 1,099 Location: WA, USA Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Ascaso Steel Pro PID Grinder: Nuova Simonelli MDX,... Vac Pot: None Drip: Hario v60 Roaster: Behmor, Fresh Roast
Posted Fri Apr 13, 2012, 12:48pm Subject: Re: What am I doing wrong with my Redbird?
After some messing with a digital thermocouple and the PID, and getting some odd readings, turns out the temp is actually 5-7 degrees colder at the brewhead. Go fig. :/
So 207 is what the PID should be reading at. I think I remember originally raising my PID temp to 205 when I was doing Redbird before, but that was around a year ago.
I hope my digital thermometer is reading correctly. Who knows how many degrees it's off. It's just a cheapo $12 one.
D4F Senior Member Joined: 15 Mar 2012 Posts: 1,223 Location: USA Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID Grinder: Preciso
Posted Fri Apr 13, 2012, 12:54pm Subject: Re: What am I doing wrong with my Redbird?
Not much to be off on a digital thermometer, a blob of thermistor calibrated to a board/chip. I do not have a vast range of espresso to compare to, but several of the internet sell sites suggest 199 - 201 and up. I would error 1 - 2 f up and come down if needed. You may have gotten a little low on the temperature. Who knows, you may drink it straight.
Posted Fri Apr 13, 2012, 1:03pm Subject: Re: What am I doing wrong with my Redbird?
JDHarding Said:
<snip> - Machine has already heated for 30 minutes. PID says 200F. - Lock PF in the group, hit the brew switch, put cup under group, beautiful looking shot goes into 4oz shotglass. <snip>
MOST machines (if not all), require a bit of a (cooling/heating)flush to even out temps.
It is possible that the brew temp of the water is dead on to 200, but as soon as it flows into the grouphead it drops 5 degrees if your machine has a cold nose. So, the initial portion (if not all) of the shot may be too cool....but heats up.
Raising up the PID temp may help to bump the temp of the FIRST shot, but note that if you pull more than one shot, that subsequent shots could be TOO hot and get bitter.
You may want to add "FLUSH x oz water" in between the above steps....that way if the entire machine is up to 200, than followup shots would also be good.
D4F Senior Member Joined: 15 Mar 2012 Posts: 1,223 Location: USA Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID Grinder: Preciso
Posted Fri Apr 13, 2012, 1:09pm Subject: Re: What am I doing wrong with my Redbird?
Good point about temperature variability. You could check the temperature, pull a double, and recheck, even for a couple of doubles and rechecks. Just follow your usual pattern of shot pulling. Of course you will know by taste, soon.
Posted Fri Apr 13, 2012, 1:11pm Subject: Re: What am I doing wrong with my Redbird?
JDHarding Said:
After some messing with a digital thermocouple and the PID, and getting some odd readings, turns out the temp is actually 5-7 degrees colder at the brewhead. Go fig. :/
So 207 is what the PID should be reading at. I think I remember originally raising my PID temp to 205 when I was doing Redbird before, but that was around a year ago.
I hope my digital thermometer is reading correctly. Who knows how many degrees it's off. It's just a cheapo $12 one.
You cannot, I repeat, cannot use digital thermometer for precise reading of brew temperature because your water will cool down as it leaves group-head and travels through the air and it will also cool down while thermometer is trying to make a reading. All cheap thermometers are slow to read... All this adds up to big difference in what you think the brew temperature is and what it actually is. 5 degrees is big spread let alone 10 degrees...
Onto the Red Bird... On my equipment I pull it at 18g IN, 26-28g OUT in 25-27 seconds at 199F. If you are getting sour Red Bird, pull it tighter. That means grind finer until you hit the sweet spot. If your temperature is in the range sour usually means you are not extracting enough.
D4F Senior Member Joined: 15 Mar 2012 Posts: 1,223 Location: USA Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: Gaggia Classic PID Grinder: Preciso
Posted Fri Apr 13, 2012, 1:19pm Subject: Re: What am I doing wrong with my Redbird?
tek Said:
You cannot, I repeat, cannot use digital thermometer for precise reading of brew temperature because your water will cool down as it leaves group-head and travels through the air and it will also cool down while thermometer is trying to make a reading. All cheap thermometers are slow to read... All this adds up to big difference in what you think the brew temperature is and what it actually is. 5 degrees is big spread let alone 10 degrees...
As long as you know that, you can get an approximation. I preheat the digital thermometer to approximate temperature so that the stainless tube is heated, and then do everything quickly. It will often help to let you know if you are high or low, not the precise number.
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