paulfl Senior Member Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Posts: 78 Location: Defuniak Springs, Fl Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Izzo alex duetto 2 Grinder: Mazzer Super Jolly Drip: Hamilton Beach
Posted Wed Nov 23, 2011, 7:39am Subject: milk frothing question
to get the obvious out of the way, I've been frothing for years and have a Izzo alex Duetto 2 dual boiler dual PID machine.
The problem, I can't get decent froth for anything!
My question: I went to the store where I normally get a 1/2 gallon milk jug to use for frothing and it lasts me about a week. My daughter had a coupon for 2 1/2 gallon containers of milk so we got 2. The date on the milk was like 2 weeks out so I thought I would be ok..........
The question: Does the "age" of the milk affect frothing performance even if it has not gone bad or is not out of date?????
to get the obvious out of the way, I've been frothing for years and have a Izzo alex Duetto 2 dual boiler dual PID machine.
The problem, I can't get decent froth for anything!
My question: I went to the store where I normally get a 1/2 gallon milk jug to use for frothing and it lasts me about a week. My daughter had a coupon for 2 1/2 gallon containers of milk so we got 2. The date on the milk was like 2 weeks out so I thought I would be ok..........
The question: Does the "age" of the milk affect frothing performance even if it has not gone bad or is not out of date?????
The Duetto's a great steamer...did you check out my "Microfoam Techniques on Duetto?" thread in the latte art and etching forum? It's a bit incoherent at times but it was sort of a recent collection with my techniques (which may not apply to your milk, pitchers, etc) on the machine. IMO, all other technique aside, I'd say the most important attribute was bumping the pressure up to ~1.4 bar (259F at my altitude.) Also with the anti-burn wands be sure to give it a LONG purge....possibly over several warmup sessions...the aim is to get the outside metal a bit warm to the touch (or at least not cold) so the temperature transfer doesn't cool down and condense the steam on the way out. Also, after a cold-start (of the steam boiler) be sure to purge some water from the tap to trigger an auto-fill. This only applies after cold start (and should apply to most machines) since the machine likely called for more water in the boiler when it was cold, but the water level rises as the boiler heats and water expands...so you want to blow off some of the top water level. (That only applies to cold-start of the steam boiler due to the expansion of heating water...you don't have to purge water after the first refill once it's hot.)
Those are the "technical tips"....the rest was my wand angle advice to a specific poster based on what I do...it's probably incoherant and useful only to me...but who knows :) My personal experience is during stretching, no more than 4 seconds before sinking in a 12oz pitcher, no more than 8 seconds in a 16oz, sink only a little with the pitcher tilted toward the wand, and a total time of 21-22 seconds in the 12oz pitcher, 38-48 seconds in the 16oz depending on how much I overfill the pitcher....) Obviously details like that will vary for each user...but that at least should provide ballpark ideas.
However milk brand (and even season depending on how single-source the milk is...the cows eating spring grass will produce different milk than cows eating stored hay & fodder over winter...different protein composition) absolutely has a huge effect. Using the same machine and same technique, I get results across the board with different milks. I generally try to get relatively local single-farm or county-wide farm co-op milks. Most of those perform generally the same but are seasonal....and each has its own characteristics/flavor (different farms have different mixtures of different breed cows, different feeds, etc.) However using the same technique that works on those with a supermarket brand milk that is produced from the NY mega-farms (nasty, nasty places) there's virtually NO protein in the milk, the cows are fed ONLY fodder, and as such no matter what I do, it simply won't form microfoam. I can blow bubbles in it...but even that barely holds....the best I can do is a thin foamy cap sitting atop steamed milk. There's not enough protein content or cream content to hold the bubbles...it behaves worse than skim. Conversely there's one farm that doesn't homogenize, though the milk tends not to separate like most unhomogenized....and this stuff is fresher than fresh. It's unique in that it has a VERY heavy, butter like flavor.....foamed, I have a hard time getting it thick enough for art, but yet it has this silken texture more fine than any other milk to the tongue when foamed (and visually....arguably a BETTER foam than art foam, though the heavy milk flavor to it can mask the coffee too easily for a light roast.) Milk is always different.
Now, for age....it's my opinion that with CERTAIN milks, age matters. The county co-op milk seems to perform the same for me regardless of age, but my "standard" milk is a single-source farm (it's just not the same to make a capp from a milk bottle from which the cow in the picture isn't a cow you've petted and know by name... :) )....anyway, that milk I think tends to get harder to make art out of after about a week or so...it becomes too easy to get foamy air bubbles at the top. On the flip-side, I've also found with that one, twice, when I let it get MUCH too stale (I hadn't realized the date and used the wrong bottle first) the oddest situation. It steamed normally...the process was fine, and I noticed the PERFECT wet paint surface..... However by the time I turned off the steam valve and wiped/purged the wand and went to swirl the pitcher.....the milk didn't move..... banged it on the counter....still didn't move. It was perfectly liquid in the pitcher during steaming, but the moment it stopped moving it turned into basically a solid block of milk-foam. I think I effectively made hot butter out of milk...or maybe cheese? :) (How's THAT for an unadvertised feature of an espresso machine? )
Point is, if the texture of a good bottle of milk can change from being milk to steaming into a solid spongy block when stale....I'd say there must be an absolute falloff (or improvement?) in steaming ability during that staling process.
*EDIT: The first part of my post may not apply to you...I read your initial statement that you were having a hard time getting good foam on a Duetto....in actuality re-reading it, you may have meant that you're having a hard time at the MOMENT with this batch of milk. I apologize if I got that wrong...but the lats two paragraphs should still be helpful!
Thanks for the info mad tamper. Yes, my problem is that I've been a frothing fool for a long time and only with this batch of milk has my foam been "flat".... I'm gonna go get more milk today, I tried many brands and settled on one that I like even though Chris (from Chris' coffee) suggested parmalat room temp milk.... Oh and as an FYI I've recently begun freezing my pitcher 'cause I read somewhere it was a good idea, not sure of the result... Thanks again!
As TMT mentioned time of year makes a difference especially with organic milk (YMMV). You mentioned you got a different size/packaging this time; not knowing the milk you're getting I believe some larger daries (or rather dairy "factories") may vary slightly depending on where the milk is sourced or packaged.
paulfl Said:
Oh and as an FYI I've recently begun freezing my pitcher 'cause I read somewhere it was a good idea, not sure of the result... Thanks again!
I used to be a big proponent of freezing the milk pithcer but honestly not sure how much difference it makes. With good technique you should have no problem whether the pitcher is room temp or from the freezer.
I used to be a big proponent of freezing the milk pithcer but honestly not sure how much difference it makes. With good technique you should have no problem whether the pitcher is room temp or from the freezer.
I know right, I did not do it because I had any problem frothing, just read it was a good idea maybe that is not a good idea kinda like if it aint broke.....
I know right, I did not do it because I had any problem frothing, just read it was a good idea maybe that is not a good idea kinda like if it aint broke.....
LOL, that's kinda why I still keep my pitchers in the freezer :-) Well that and it's conveniently located next to the milk in the fridge. I just don't fret now if they're sitting on the counter.
Just happened to me. I bought the one gallon jug instead of the 1/2 gallon carton of the same brand of milk. I could get nothing but soap bubbles from the gallon jug, I went to the same store and picked up the 1/2 gallon carton and I was back in business. I was wondering if light had anything to do with this.
I just looked at the two containers, they come from two different dairy farms, it is Organic Valley milk. Each package has completely different companies dealing with packaging and distribution.
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