Posted Sun Oct 16, 2011, 1:10pm Subject: Making espresso at low pressure
After months of adjustments I still like my moka pot coffee better than my espresso (Method: Gaggia Classic, Virtuoso Preciso; triple shot, 33 second extraction w/ a naked portafilter. The results look good). Since moka pots work at low pressure I was thinking of modding my machine again (it is already down to 9 atmospheres, not the factory setting). Can anyone make suggestions in this regard? I can't find anything on this subject.
Thanks.
-Brett
Making espresso is not rocket science. Rockets fail less often.
Posted Sun Oct 16, 2011, 5:03pm Subject: Re: Making espresso at low pressure
I started with the same machine. I still have it, but it has been so heavily modified I can control just about anything manually. I do everything with a double basket so I'm not sure how well it will apply with a triple. I've heard a lot about it being difficult to pull a triple on the machine. Also, I haven't tried a moka pot yet, been meaning to though.
I could run through all of the variables but I'm going to assume they're all good so I can just start off with the pressure question. Here's my personal experience, hope it helps.
The factory preset is way too high. I use a gauge to keep mine at almost exactly 9bar and it made a huge difference. I converted to a rotary pump, custom pressure tank to slowly ramp up the pressure and a solenoid valve I can operate independently to add just street pressure. I use the pressure tank to store any pressure below that of street that can be released for pre-infusion. It tapers off slightly, but is fairly constant up to 8 seconds.
I've asked myself about a low-pressure setup, but have only experimented with it during pre-infusion. Just for fun I've pre-infused for as long as 20 seconds. I'm sure you could try to extract a shot with the low pressure, but the grinds would have to be quite large and would likely break up resulting in heavy channeling. You may want to try a pressurized filter basket just for fun as most classics came with one. What I do know from experience is that low pressure pre-infusion is very beneficial. You might want to play with that first. I'm using 2Bar for 5 to 8 seconds. You would need to do some modification for this though.
My guess it that the moka pot is just easier to use as the Classic can be quite a challenge to get consistent with. Just an idea, but how fresh are the beans you are using? I've done every mod to my machine I know of. All of them made a little improvement each. Then I started roasting beans to ensure freshness. BIG improvement...
Posted Sun Oct 16, 2011, 9:19pm Subject: Re: Making espresso at low pressure
This topic came up over on Home Barista. You should read it for yourself since I only skimmed the thread and that was a while back. What I recall was 8 or 9 bar did not make any difference in the quality of the espresso. If you get a more forgiving flow at 8 bar without compromising quality then it sounds like it is worth trying.
I chew coffee beans with my teeth while gargling with 195 F water to enjoy coffee. What is this "coffee brewing" device you speak of?
Each of Peet's stores gets their beans delivered (depending upon which specific location you visit) once or twice a week, where they sit in the back room until needed. Then, they are dumped into those open bins to get stale until you buy them . . .
The only way for you to get beans from Peet's 1-3 days old is for your store to a) get the beans delivered the day after roasting, b) for the store to be completely sold out of that specific blend/type of beans when they arrive, and c) for you to visit that store the same day as the delivery (thus, 1 day old beans), or within the next 48 hours (thus, 2-3 days old).
Don't misunderstand: I live just uphill from the original Peet's, and I like their coffee -- indeed, grew up with it -- but I get my beans from a different roaster (Red Bird Coffee): I place my order on Sunday, the beans are roasted on Monday, and delivered on Wednesday.
You don't need to roast your own beans, but you do need to make sure they're fresh, and I don't think you can do that by buying your beans from Peet's.
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130psi Said:
After months of adjustments I still like my moka pot coffee better than my espresso (Method: Gaggia Classic, Virtuoso Preciso; triple shot, 33 second extraction w/ a naked portafilter. The results look good).
Well, what that tells me is a) you're "doing" your moka pot right, and b) your espresso -- well, not so right. I used a Gaggia Coffee (same machine as Gaggia Classic, minus the 3-way solenoid) for a very long time before I upgraded to prosumer and then commercial HX machines. The Gaggia can make fine espresso, but it's never going to be the same as a shot you get from a commercial machine, made with fresh beans, the grind properly adjusted, and pulled by a "professional" barista.
You don't say that your shot from the Gaggia is "bad," or what it is you don't like about it, only that you prefer what you make using your moka pot over what you make using your SBDU Gaggia. The shots using your Gaggia could be fine -- there could be absolutely nothing wrong with them -- and you could still prefer your moka pot! Some people do.
Also, although you say "triple shot," you don't say your dose . . .
Posted Mon Oct 17, 2011, 11:25am Subject: Re: Making espresso at low pressure
Thanks. I asked the baristas (at 3 stores in my neighborhood); they told me the days they each get beans (each is different). I show up that day and the beans, they say, are roasted the day before and replace the the current beans. Maybe they are mistaken since it happens early morning.
I will try (Red Bird Coffee).
Making: 22g for triple. I place 1/2 of the grounds into the basket, use the Weiss distribution, nuttation, tamp partially, tamp the edges, complete the tamp @15-20lb, no polish, add the rest of the grounds and repeat. Extraction lasts ~33 seconds. The coffee usually looks pretty good based on photos and videos others have posted. There is almost always some channeling/squirting with the triple basked (not much if I use a double). I used to not tamp the edges (missed by the tamper), perform a polish, and load all the grounds at once instead of in two aliquots. It didn't make much difference, but there was more channeling with this simpler method. Either way, the shots are mostly hitting the numbers I've read about and the color is also (deep brown with some striping), long lasting crema, etc. I just find it pretty harsh (sour or bitter, I'm not even sure I know the difference. The flavor is just harsh to my taste; and this is in a latte), I generally then add sugar. W/ the moka pot I enjoy the less intense flavors and notice more of the pleasant aromatics. This is not the case when I get a latte or cappuccino at Peet's. So, I am wondering if I can reduce the intensity of the espresso if I drop the pressure and loosen the grind, and maybe temp surf?
Other things that might be relevant: I am a sensitive ("super") taster (ie, I can taste the bitter PTC paper that is an index of total taste buds and predictor of other aspects of one's preferences with food (sensitive to hot and spicy food, etc.). I generally prefer less dark roasts (Peet's has none). However, if I just don't like espresso, then I would not appreciate the one's made at a good shop, like Peet's. So, I'm confused.
-Brett
Making espresso is not rocket science. Rockets fail less often.
Posted Mon Oct 17, 2011, 1:18pm Subject: Re: Making espresso at low pressure
130psi Said:
I just find it pretty harsh (sour or bitter, I'm not even sure I know the difference. The flavor is just harsh to my taste; and this is in a latte), I generally then add sugar. W/ the moka pot I enjoy the less intense flavors and notice more of the pleasant aromatics. This is not the case when I get a latte or cappuccino at Peet's. So, I am wondering if I can reduce the intensity of the espresso if I drop the pressure and loosen the grind, and maybe temp surf?
Other things that might be relevant: I am a sensitive ("super") taster (ie, I can taste the bitter PTC paper that is an index of total taste buds and predictor of other aspects of one's preferences with food (sensitive to hot and spicy food, etc.). I generally prefer less dark roasts (Peet's has none). However, if I just don't like espresso, then I would not appreciate the one's made at a good shop, like Peet's. So, I'm confused.
Sounds like you're a potential lover for the lever machines. =P I used to have a Gaggia Carezza and when switching from Carezza to La Peppina, I was caught by surprised of the smoothness/tameness(or less harsh/punchy) of the shots. From Carezza, they looked perfect on the naked pf and they taste pretty good. But they have some sort of sharper upfront taste as compared to La Peppina's. You will never/hardly notice this if you never have the chance to compare them. From the lever shots, the first sip is gentler on your bud and then the flavors just develop beautifully on your palate. By no mean it is a weak/bland shot, but the way it develops on the palate is just different. I was confused at first by these findings and I thought I was missing/doing something wrong. Suddenly, my shots were all not that harsh as before and I was panic. Irony I know. Eventually, I came to a conclusion that it's actually the characteristic of a lever shot to be that way. And of course, I like espresso as straight shots even more since then.
Back to your situation though, you could try adjusting the pressure even lower, maybe 6-7 bar?I am sure how this would change the profile of a pump machine's shot though. Also, try using lower dose and aim for normale volume(~16g coffee to 1.5-2.0oz). Don't use the triple if the shots are too strong.
If you have time, maybe you're interested to go through my experience of transition from Gaggia to Peppina. See the descriptions if they're the shot characteristic that you're looking for(First and last post) Too tame of a shot from La Peppina?
JasonBrandtLewis Senior Member Joined: 9 Dec 2005 Posts: 6,099 Location: Berkeley, CA Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: Elektra T1 - La Valentina -... Grinder: Mahlkönig K30 Vario -... Vac Pot: Yama 5-cup Drip: CCD, Chemex Roaster: No, no, not another...
Posted Wed Oct 19, 2011, 7:38am Subject: Re: Making espresso at low pressure
130psi Said:
Thanks. I asked the baristas (at 3 stores in my neighborhood); they told me the days they each get beans (each is different). I show up that day and the beans, they say, are roasted the day before and replace the the current beans.
Let's just say that I've been a customer of Peet's for 20+ years, and several friends have worked for them over the years . . . I have never seen them/known them to dump out whatever beans remain in the bins just to refill the bins with "that day's" deliveries . . . .
130psi Said:
. . . the shots are mostly hitting the numbers I've read about and the color is also (deep brown with some striping), long lasting crema, etc.
Worry less about numbers; worry more about taste. "Numbers" are a good place to start, not to finish. The finish line, so to speak, is all about great taste!
130psi Said:
(sour or bitter, I'm not even sure I know the difference. The flavor is just harsh to my taste; and this is in a latte)
Sour -- think sucking on a lemon. Bitter -- think a cup of black tea (no sugar; no milk or lemon) that was brewed for far too long. Very different qualities.
130psi Said:
So, I am wondering if I can reduce the intensity of the espresso if I drop the pressure and loosen the grind, and maybe temp surf?
Drop pressure? Probably not. "Loosen the grind"? (Do you mean grind more coarsely, or tamp lighter? Either way.) Probably not. Temperature surf? Absolutely.
130psi Said:
Other things that might be relevant: I am a sensitive ("super") taster (ie, I can taste the bitter PTC paper that is an index of total taste buds and predictor of other aspects of one's preferences with food (sensitive to hot and spicy food, etc.). I generally prefer less dark roasts (Peet's has none). However, if I just don't like espresso, then I would not appreciate the one's made at a good shop, like Peet's. So, I'm confused.
First of all, I envy your super-taster ability, despite the added difficulties that can arise with it.
Secondly, please understand that Peet's is just as you describe: a "good shop." It is not, however, a great shop. California is a rather large state. If you were more specific about where you live, we would be able to (hopefully) recommend some great shops in your area to visit and see if that makes a difference in your espresso appreciation.
One more question, returning to "the numbers" for a moment. Why are you making triples?
Posted Wed Oct 19, 2011, 12:15pm Subject: Re: Making espresso at low pressure
JasonBrandtLewis Said:
If you were more specific about where you live, we would be able to (hopefully) recommend some great shops in your area to visit and see if that makes a difference in your espresso appreciation.
One more question, returning to "the numbers" for a moment. Why are you making triples?
I appreciate that the numbers are not the goal. I just wanted folks to know that my notion to reduce pressure comes after trying what is expected. I really don't want to retreat to moka pot. It feels like failure.
-Brett
Making espresso is not rocket science. Rockets fail less often.
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