JDHarding Senior Member Joined: 31 Aug 2007 Posts: 1,099 Location: WA, USA Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Ascaso Steel Pro PID Grinder: Nuova Simonelli MDX,... Vac Pot: None Drip: Hario v60 Roaster: Behmor, Fresh Roast
Posted Mon Sep 27, 2010, 9:18pm Subject: Re: I forgot how to pull shots
I decided to measure the temp of the water from the group after letting the machine warm up for 30 minutes. It was a lot cooler than I thought it was. About 170F idle. I flipped the steam switch on for 10 seconds, then checked the temp again, but it was only 180F. I'm not sure what's going on here anymore.
How are you measuring? Just sticking a thermometer in the water won't give an accurate reading as it cools rapidly. Go to Randy's (frcn) site Espresso My Espresso; about half way down the page under "how to pages" click #7: Brew-Temperture Check. This won't give perfectly accurate readings, but it's an inexpensive, easy method that will give you some rough #s.
JDHarding Senior Member Joined: 31 Aug 2007 Posts: 1,099 Location: WA, USA Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Ascaso Steel Pro PID Grinder: Nuova Simonelli MDX,... Vac Pot: None Drip: Hario v60 Roaster: Behmor, Fresh Roast
Posted Tue Sep 28, 2010, 6:02am Subject: Re: I forgot how to pull shots
By holding a plastic container with the probe in it against the head and filling it with 5 seconds worth of water before the boiler kicks on again.
Okay, so the machine, at stable temp (30 minute warmup) idles at around 170F. Super heating for 10 seconds brings it up to 180F, 20 seconds brings it to 185F, and 30 seconds goes up to 190F. Either something's wrong with the machine, or my digital thermometer is off by 10 degrees. Also, I remember this thing spitting out steam during a flush when I super heat it for 10 seconds, and now that doesn't happen until 30 seconds.
And I descaled it just last week. So that's not it.
Maybe it's just gotten old.
UPDATE:
I checked my thermometer's accuracy using an electric kettle. The kettle boils to 210F degrees before shutting off, the thermometer read 212F, so the thermometer is just slightly off. Or the kettle boils slightly hotter than it says.
JDHarding Senior Member Joined: 31 Aug 2007 Posts: 1,099 Location: WA, USA Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Ascaso Steel Pro PID Grinder: Nuova Simonelli MDX,... Vac Pot: None Drip: Hario v60 Roaster: Behmor, Fresh Roast
Posted Tue Sep 28, 2010, 9:53am Subject: Re: I forgot how to pull shots
I'm thinking about rigging the probe inside the portafilter through the hole in the bottom and getting the temp that way.
Replacing thermostats is cheap. Replacing a boiler, however, is not.
On a side note, I just made some hario coffee with the Bonsai blend. It's pretty good. Dark chocolate taste. Only needed a little sugar.
UPDATE: Okay, after cutting my plastic cup down to fit the grouphead, punching holes in it to install the probe in, letting the machine get to stable temp, then measuring it's idle temp after flushing and letting the light go out, then giving it a few seconds to stop making heating up noises, the idle temp is actually 190F. Super heating brings it up to 200-205F, and doing a 1-2 second flush afterward brings it down to around 195-200F.
So I guess everything's okay, and superheating for only 10 seconds is the best choice. I'm sure there's maybe a 5 degree margin of error, but the plastic cup's bottom sits exactly where the bottom of the PF would be, so they're about the same.
Worse part is I wouldn't be able to install a PID because the probe on a PID would sit outside the boiler, either on the boiler's surface, or with that little screw probe that would screw into the little hole, so the water temp would be different from the boiler temp. PID would never show the water temp, and even calibrating it would be wrong because the boiler would probably always be hotter than the water, and fresh cold water gets sucked in, changes the temp, who knows how quickly that water heats up inside the boiler, meanwhile the boiler's already hot on the outside, but the PID thinks that's the water temp, meanwhile the water is only warm inside. Or it could be the opposite, and the outside of the boiler is cooler than the water on the inside. The PID would still be wrong, and... *head explodes*
I uh.. think I'll just focus on timing, instead of temp. Heat up to stable (30 minutes), flush till light comes on, when light goes out, steam switch for 10 seconds, flush for 1 second, lock in PF, and pull my 25-30 second shot. No more temp watching or I might lose my mind and drive a bus off a cliff or something weird. @.@
JDHarding Senior Member Joined: 31 Aug 2007 Posts: 1,099 Location: WA, USA Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Ascaso Steel Pro PID Grinder: Nuova Simonelli MDX,... Vac Pot: None Drip: Hario v60 Roaster: Behmor, Fresh Roast
Posted Tue Sep 28, 2010, 1:38pm Subject: Re: I forgot how to pull shots
Okay, finally got around to pulling a shot today. Double, as always. Did my usual dance. Machine at stable temp, weighed out beans, ground, overfilled basket with yogurt cup in it, WDT'd, tapped the basket twice on the countertop, pulled the yogurt cup out, leveled it off making sure to fill in the gap the yogurt cup made, tamped straight down, put in the PF, flushed machine, light goes on, light goes off, steam switch for 10 seconds, flush for 2 seconds, lock in PF, pull and time.. sloooooow pull. Wtf?
Now it's not the machine, it's not my grind, it's not the beans, it's not the tamp. What happened here?
I weighed my basket before I put in the machine, just to see what it weighed. It weighed at around 44 grams total for the basket and puck. So after cleaning things up, I weighed the basket by itself. It weighs at 25 grams. 44 - 25 = 19.
My puck was 19 grams! No wonder it pulled slow, not to mention the flavor was eye-poppingly intense. And it was dark colored through most of the shot. Even after 30 seconds it was still dark. I managed to pull about 1.5oz in 30 seconds.
I think tapping the basket on the counter is where I went wrong. It's not a bad idea if I want to pack more grounds in the basket, but it doesn't consistently work every time because of how hard I tap, so I'll stop doing that. After WDT, I'll just level it and fill in the yogurt cup gap.
Oh, and Joel, in your experience with this machine how much coffee should be in my basket? There's a lot of different answers I get for this.
JDHarding Senior Member Joined: 31 Aug 2007 Posts: 1,099 Location: WA, USA Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Ascaso Steel Pro PID Grinder: Nuova Simonelli MDX,... Vac Pot: None Drip: Hario v60 Roaster: Behmor, Fresh Roast
Posted Wed Sep 29, 2010, 11:37am Subject: Re: I forgot how to pull shots
Tried 17 grams today. Shot pulled a bit faster, but tasted good. Blonded a little early. Did not tap the basket against the counter. So 18 grams is most likely the sweet point.
I added some hot water from the machine to the shot, about 1 ounce, and a little sugar. It was good. A bit bright, a bit strong. Creamy. Not bad at all. Maybe I'll just add half an ounce of water next time, build myself up to drinking it straight.
On another note: I think this topic might be getting a bit long, and I feel like I'm just rambling my findings. I'm surprised there's been over 2,000 views. Is this really that interesting? Maybe I should just start an espresso twitter. ;D
Espresso twitter would look something like this:
I turned on machine. (30 minutes later) I weighed and measured coffee beans. I ground coffee. I put ground coffee in my basket. I WDT'd. I leveled coffee in basket. I tamped. I put basket in portafilter. I flushed machine till light went on. Light went off. I turned on steam switch for 10 seconds. Turned steam switch off. Flushed for 2 seconds. I put PF in machine. I pulled shot for 30 seconds. I took PF out of machine. I knocked puck into knockbox. I washed PF. I washed grouphead. I dried PF. I turned off machine. I drank espresso. (1 hour later) I pee'd espresso. ;P
JDHarding Senior Member Joined: 31 Aug 2007 Posts: 1,099 Location: WA, USA Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Ascaso Steel Pro PID Grinder: Nuova Simonelli MDX,... Vac Pot: None Drip: Hario v60 Roaster: Behmor, Fresh Roast
Posted Fri Oct 1, 2010, 4:25pm Subject: Re: I forgot how to pull shots
Since my poor grinder has died, I decided to try using my Virtuoso instead. Now that I'm armed with more information and experience, it was easier to switch to the Virtuoso and dial in a grind than I thought it would be. I set it finer and finer till it began clumping, which is 6 clicks from zero. Zero on my dial is true zero, which is where the burrs kiss when the machine runs. 6 clicks from zero the shot pulled at about 18 seconds. A bit too fast, so 5 clicks from zero and the shot pulled at around 23 seconds. I'm using 16-17 grams, but I'm weighing them out now, and I'm noticing it's more grinds than I thought it was. I say 16-17 grams because my scale can't decide if it's 16 or 17. I should get one of those small pocket gram scales. Anyway, 15 grams might be a better amount. Next shot I'll do 15 grams at 4 clicks and see how that pulls.
Doesn't taste too bad. Tamp was the same as usual, no fancy stuff. Machine was stable, surf went smoothly, temp was right. Taste is a little sour. Not really bitter, just a bit sour. The beans might be going bad since it's been about 2 weeks since I bought them. A little hot water and sugar added and it's okay, but still a bit sour. Sour could also be due to it's lighter roast.
Posted Tue Dec 28, 2010, 8:54pm Subject: Re: I forgot how to pull shots
I indeed found ths thread to be interesting! :) I did have a question though... I have been adding about 17 grams WB into my grinder and the result has been an average of 14-15 grams in basket. I use WDT and tamp (no tap) with about 25-30 lbs of pressure (yes I checked on the bathroom scale!). My question is that I very rarely have an "overflow" in the basket. When I push the grounds around with my finger they are not at the top of the basket. The pucks come out whole usually. The shots have been OK... I definitely dont have top shelf equipment. On my Infinity grinder I have been grinding in between the 1st and 2nd notches in the Fine setting.
I also temp. surf and have mapped out the boiler to get an idea of the ranges. I typically try to get around 200 F. I read a few posts in this thread and plan on trying some new things. Is it an issue that I am not filling the basket after grinding?
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