Alaskan Senior Member Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Posts: 19 Location: Anchorage Alaska Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Mon Sep 14, 2009, 11:10am Subject: Shot comes out too fast - Rancilio Silvia
I have been making espresso (if that’s what you want to call it) on a cheap Krupps for many years. But I decided to upgrade to a decent machine and learn to make good espresso.
So I purchased a Rancilio Silvia V3. The coffee came out immediately on the first shot, no crema and the double shot was done in less than 10 seconds. So I set my old Braun Burr grinder to it finest setting and tried again. Same result. I played with my tampering technique and still the same thing.
So after intensive reading I decided the most likely cause was the grind. So I went to my favorite coffee shop and the proprietor let me come behind the counter and watch her make my latté. Then I looked at some of her ground coffee and my Braun was grinding coarser than her drip ground. So the first decision is to get a good grinder. But until I could do that I wanted to experiment. So I had her grind me a pound with an espresso grind.
So armed with a well ground, good coffee I tried again. The results were better but still not satisfactory. The weird thing is that the coffee still comes out immediately, with no delay and no crema and then slows and starts coming out slowly with a crema and looks like it should. But of course by then I have a lot more than a double shot. The puck looks perfect (at least to my eyes) coming out in one nice solid piece without any visible channels.
I have tried a bunch of different techniques, I have tried with a well warmed machine, I’m heating the lines, bleeding the pressure and I even opened it up and reduced the pump pressure to no avail.
So anybody have any idea what I could be doing wrong?
34acd Senior Member Joined: 19 Dec 2001 Posts: 95 Location: Sierra Nevada Foothills Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Mon Sep 14, 2009, 11:52am Subject: Re: Shot comes out too fast - Rancilio Silvia
You're headed up the right path but you aren't going to get there without some trial and error. You really do need to get that espresso grinder (what did you buy?) and grind at home. The blend of beans, age since roasting, tamping and humidity all affect the shot timing. It just takes some practice.
Don't expect miracles with the pre-ground coffee (its getting stale as you drive home) but you can at least polish your tamping and temp surfing technique while you wait for the grinder. It sounds like it's still too coarse for your machine even if it worked at the shop on their equipment. Tamping harder will only compensate a little.
Make sure you are filling the basket to the top, even and tamp firmly—with the last the lest important.
Follow the temperature surfing guidance.
Get a larger double portafilter basket. The one that comes with the Silvia is marginal. The single basket is about useless. A "ridgeless" basket of about 16 grams capacity is ideal and available many places for under $10.
It is normal for some beans to show a little black espresso before the crema starts. With other beans it might start immediately. The proof, as they say is in the taste.
Weasel Senior Member Joined: 29 May 2007 Posts: 118 Location: San Jose, CA Expertise: Just starting
Posted Mon Sep 14, 2009, 12:06pm Subject: Re: Shot comes out too fast - Rancilio Silvia
I think your issues are grind and dose. You really need a great grinder, see Mark Prince's How to Buy an Espresso Machine article. Even though you bought pre ground, it is unlikely that grind setting is right for your machine and dose. Silvia is finicky about her grind.
None the less, are you using a double basket? You should, singles are very difficult to dial in, especially on a Silvia. It is very useful to have a scale to measure your dose. 1/10 of a gram makes a difference. If you can get a scale that measures in 1/10gram increments (~$30), you should.
If obtaining a scale is problematic, try to find a way to be consistent in your dosing. I fill the basket, level with a credit card, then tamp.
For your existing bag of ground coffee, I think you need to increase your dose. You might try something like: fill the basket, a couple of light taps to settle the grounds, fill again, then level off, then tamp and brew.
Alaskan Senior Member Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Posts: 19 Location: Anchorage Alaska Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Mon Sep 14, 2009, 12:34pm Subject: Re: Shot comes out too fast - Rancilio Silvia
Thanks for the responses. I haven’t purchased a grinder yet because I’m hesitant to fork out a bunch more money to get the same garbage that I used to get from my Krupps. That’s why I got the pre-ground coffee to experiment with. They know that I had a machine that could handle a fine grind so they set it the way they grind it for their commercial machines. So I have a hard time imagining that it would need a finer grind. I realize that the ground coffee will get stale and not taste as good but right now that is the least of my worries. Right now I just want to get a brew that doesn’t spurt out immediately like a fire hose.
Yes I’m using a double basket.
I’ll keep experimenting but I’m really running out of options here. I’ve done this in a controlled manner, changing only one technique at a time and the results seem to be the same no matter what I do. I’m starting to think that I have purchased a very expensive Krupps clone.
Posted Mon Sep 14, 2009, 1:09pm Subject: Re: Shot comes out too fast - Rancilio Silvia
Sorry to say it, but the problem is the grinder (it may be related to beans as well)
To get better results, you'll need a good (or great) espresso grinder and fresh roasted coffee. Without these two key ingredients you could be using a $10k espresso machine and still get results no better than your Krups.
Once ground, the coffee not only gets stale, it also gets DRY. The dry grounds do not offer as much resistance to make decent espresso. Also, your Silvia may have unregulated pressure and so it's actually pushing the water harder than the shop's machine (contributing to making the shot run quicker).
The Silvia V3 has a pressure regulator (the overpressure relief valve, or OPV). I suggest adjusting this to achieve a pressure of around 9 to 9.5 bar as measured against deadhead (pump on, flow blocked).
Finally, depending on your technique packing the basket you could be getting channeling that allows the water to slip past the coffee grounds without being forced through. The pressurized water will find the easiest path, so if the puck isn't firm and well-sealed to the edges of the basket then the water will get past.
Alaskan Senior Member Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Posts: 19 Location: Anchorage Alaska Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Mon Sep 14, 2009, 2:18pm Subject: Re: Shot comes out too fast - Rancilio Silvia
Well my last try was a perfect 25 second shot that looked just like the video I’ve seen on the internet. Taste was OK considering that I’m using beans that were ground 2 days ago. So that's some progress.
I played with the dose using weasel’s technique with the credit card, so my dose was larger than I had used previously. Thanks for that tip.
But that brings up another issue. With the dose higher in the basket, I had a heck of a time getting the portafilter to lock into the brew head. The coffee was literally interfering with it and I figured I was messing up the tamp but went ahead and brewed it anyway. Is that normal? I figured that the portafilter should just easily lock into place without the coffee being forced up against the bottom of the brew head.
34acd Senior Member Joined: 19 Dec 2001 Posts: 95 Location: Sierra Nevada Foothills Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Mon Sep 14, 2009, 4:44pm Subject: Re: Shot comes out too fast - Rancilio Silvia
A dry coffee puck expands when the hot water hits it. Its pretty normal with a Silvia to see the indent of the hex nut from the dispersion screen on the puck after brewing. Not tidy, maybe, but it doesn't hurt anything. If you have evened the coffee to the top and then tamp, the level of the coffee should end up about 1/8" to 3/16" below the top of the portafilter when you lock it in. You shouldn't have any trouble doing it. If the coffee is is in the way, all I can guess is that you overfilled the PF basket before you tamped.
Glad your shots are improving. I second everything JonR10 said, you won't be really happy until you pop for a good grinder.
Alaskan Senior Member Joined: 14 Sep 2009 Posts: 19 Location: Anchorage Alaska Expertise: I love coffee
Posted Mon Sep 14, 2009, 5:01pm Subject: Re: Shot comes out too fast - Rancilio Silvia
The problem is that when I don't overfill it, the shot comes out too fast. When I overfill it then it works. This would seem to imply that I need a finer grind than I got from the coffee shop because they ground it to match what they use for their commercial machines. Even if I get a good grinder I doubt if I can get it finer than the commercial grinder.
I do get the indent of the hex nut even when I don't overfill but then I get the fast shot.
I assume that the water temperature effects the speed of the shot, so I will play with that a bit.
Posted Mon Sep 14, 2009, 7:38pm Subject: Re: Shot comes out too fast - Rancilio Silvia
As Jon mentioned, pre-ground coffee will pour a much faster shot then coffee ground to the same fineness that is freshly ground. I didn't know it was because of moisture loss, but that makes sense. I noticed this before when I accidentally ground too much for a shot and tried to use it later in the day. I experienced the same issues with gushing shots that you are having. You'll hear it time and time again, but having a quality grinder is FAR more important than having a good machine (which the silvia is). Obtaining pre-ground coffee ground to pull shots in the correct time is going to be next to impossible and even if you can achieve this, the results are still going to be very poor. If your goal is to make good espresso, you're going to have to buy a better grinder. Unfortunately, there is no way around it. If you have a budget you are willing to spend, I'm sure people here can make some fine recommendations.
grumpybarista Senior Member Joined: 19 Feb 2007 Posts: 217 Location: Detroit Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: LP Pub1 Grinder: Mazzer Mini w/ doser, NS... Vac Pot: Yama 5-cup Drip: French Press, aeropress Roaster: Behmor 1600
Posted Mon Sep 14, 2009, 7:50pm Subject: Re: Shot comes out too fast - Rancilio Silvia
Sorry Alaska, I think everyone's right here. Get a used Mazzer Mini for maybe $300 on ebay or perhaps on the BST forum here on CG. It seems like a lot of money but you'll see the difference right away.
You're not a true coffeegeek until we've totally sucked you in with all the hardcore gadgets. But you'll always look back at your old ways and laugh... :)
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