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Volume - Small Return on 14g's - What A Tease! - (Repost)
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ECM
Senior Member
ECM
Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 476
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia Canada
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Mazzer Robour E
Vac Pot: French Press
Drip: no
Roaster: Fresh Roast+8,  i-roast and...
Posted Tue Nov 2, 2004, 7:28pm
Subject: Volume - Small Return on 14g's - What A Tease! - (Repost)
 

I originally posted this thread in the Q&A section but got only 1 single reply.  I hope you don't mind, but I am reposting this thread here because I think it applies more to the subject heading (MACHINES & GRINDERS)  

My questions, or should I say frustrations, concerns shot volume.  

Little Background:
I am currently using a Giotto Premium and a Mini Mazzer grinder.  I love both of these pieces of equipment and if left to my own devices, I would most certainly overdose on caffeine if not for the (watchful eye of my wife).  My other passion is home roasting!  I have 30 pounds of green stored in my home which I roast every day using my Fresh Roast +.  I roast just enough to get me through the day.  I am somewhat obsessed with using only fresh coffee.

What is My Problem?
Naturally I allow the Giotto an hour to heat up before I pull shots.  Once up to temperature, I measure out using a digital scale, 14 grams of beans.  I then move the measured beans to my grinder and grind.  I then dose into the stock double portafiler supplied by ECM.   My problem is that my two demitasse cups are only about 1/3 full before the shot goes blond and I have to cut the switch.  I have tried many times to allow the shot to go a bit longer.  Every time I do, my pucks are very wet and the shot tastes bitter.  I read somewhere that many of you jam 18 grams into a double basket.  I tired that today and the basket was so full I couldn’t lock it into the group without giving it an extra hard tamp.  Although the shot was very good that came out the other end, it was not very hot because I obviously over tamped!  How is it possible to get 18 grams into a 14 gram basket?

My real question is this:  Can you give me any pointers to increase my shot volume without sacrificing shot quality?  I am assuming that if one divides a double shot into two espresso cups, the cups should be about half full and not 1/3 or even ¼ full which does happen to me on occasion?

Thank you kindly for your support,

Rick
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steven_meyer
Senior Member


Joined: 19 Jul 2003
Posts: 506
Location: San Bruno, ca
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Alex Duetto 3.0, ECM  Giotto...
Grinder: HG-One, Mahlkonig K-30 vario
Posted Tue Nov 2, 2004, 7:40pm
Subject: Re: Volume - Small Return on 14g's - What A Tease! - (Repost)
 

Hi ECM, I have the same set up as you and I get very good results using 16 grams of ground beans, and this includes getting every last speck out of the grinding chute.

Also, besides the point. You roast beans every day? Do you let the beans sit for 24-48 hours before you use them? If you don't that might make some difference in your shot quality.
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brentling
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brentling
Joined: 25 Sep 2002
Posts: 911
Location: Auckland
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: wega, fiorenzato
Grinder: Growing collection of...
Drip: yes people call me that...
Roaster: collection building...
Posted Tue Nov 2, 2004, 7:43pm
Subject: Re: Volume - Small Return on 14g's - What A Tease! - (Repost)
 

Not familiar with your machine - have the Mazzer though.

My first thought is forget the volume, what does it taste like. I bought a double espresso from a cafe I go to regularly today, it was a ristretto - though I don't think they realised! tasted great.

I queried the volume, as I know the cafe pours mainly singles, and very few straight espressos. I queried when the drink was finished :)

The other obvious is grind finer. And, I have never weighed my dose - I just grind, dose, tamp. I often think about weighing the coffee, but never have - I dose to the top of the basket, level then tamp.

Not that I think it is a bad thing, but sometimes we can beome obsessed with the detail, and forget the purpose.

My method works for me, you just need to be comfortable with your method and results - hey make two doubles is volume is your requirement!
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jrtATL
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jrtATL
Joined: 20 Feb 2004
Posts: 1,035
Location: Austin TX
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Expobar Office Control
Grinder: Mazzer Jolly; Cunill...
Drip: Melitta Clarity
Roaster: Drum on a Weber grill; HG/DB
Posted Tue Nov 2, 2004, 7:45pm
Subject: Re: Volume - Small Return on 14g's - What A Tease! - (Repost)
 

ECM Said:

My real question is this:  Can you give me any pointers to increase my shot volume without sacrificing shot quality?  I am assuming that if one divides a double shot into two espresso cups, the cups should be about half full and not 1/3 or even ¼ full which does happen to me on occasion?

Posted November 2, 2004 link

A double shot (whether you use 14g or 18g of grounds) will typically equal about 50ml of fluid.  I just measured out 50ml of water and divided it between two of my espresso cups.  Both cups were less than 1/2 full.  The entire 50ml did not even fill one espresso cup up all the way.

Its all about quality, not quantity.

Jeremy

 
"I've appeared before every court in the state.  Often as a lawyer." - Lionel Hutz, Esq.
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HB
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Joined: 3 Apr 2003
Posts: 2,913
Location: Cary, NC
Posted Tue Nov 2, 2004, 8:06pm
Subject: Re: Volume - Small Return on 14g's - What A Tease! - (Repost)
 

ECM Said:

Although the shot was very good that came out the other end, it was not very hot because I obviously over tamped!  How is it possible to get 18 grams into a 14 gram basket?

Posted November 2, 2004 link

So-called 14 gram baskets aren't always. On the left is the stock basket that comes with the Giotto Premium next to the "18 gram" basket you've heard about. This difference aside for a moment, watching the pour is more important than volume, and you may find some blends pull more to your taste as ristrettos than standard doubles.  OTOH, Mark offers another perspective on doubles in his article Meet the New Drink: The Traditional Double, if you want to take his challenge to give up the "ristretto crutch" (link).

-- Dan

HB: giotto-basket.jpg
(Click for larger image)

 
www.home-barista.com
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ECM
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ECM
Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 476
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia Canada
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Mazzer Robour E
Vac Pot: French Press
Drip: no
Roaster: Fresh Roast+8,  i-roast and...
Posted Wed Nov 3, 2004, 5:44am
Subject: Re: Volume - Small Return on 14g's - What A Tease! - (Repost)
 

Thank you very much guys for responding to my post.  Special thanks to Jrtatl, I never thought to actually measure the amount of fluid coming out of the Giotto and then dividing it into two espresso cups.  You are quite correct, it actually measures out to be about 1/2 a cup in each cup.   Thanks as well goes to Dan_Kehn for his excellent link and photos.  

Dan, can you tell me where I can pick up one of these 18g baskets?  

Will I get a bit more volume in my cup if I use this basket?

Is it in fact, a triple basket?  If not, what is the measurement in Grams for a triple basket?

If you can dirrect me to a Canadian distributor who carries these baskets I would appreciate it very much.

Thanks again fellows,

Rick
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ECM
Senior Member
ECM
Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 476
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia Canada
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Mazzer Robour E
Vac Pot: French Press
Drip: no
Roaster: Fresh Roast+8,  i-roast and...
Posted Wed Nov 3, 2004, 5:48am
Subject: Re: Volume - Small Return on 14g's - What A Tease! - (Repost)
 

One further question goes out to Geek member "Chipman" who advised me to let my beans degass for 48 hours.  If I do allow them to degass, will that affect the volume I get back or will it simply affect the taste of the espresso?

Personally, I enjoy the taste of freshly roasted beans.  I often roast an hour before I grind them.  I hae allowed my beans 48 hours to degass but found they lacked the freshness I soooo enjoy!
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HB
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Joined: 3 Apr 2003
Posts: 2,913
Location: Cary, NC
Posted Wed Nov 3, 2004, 6:03am
Subject: Re: Volume - Small Return on 14g's - What A Tease! - (Repost)
 

ECM Said:

Dan, can you tell me where I can pick up one of these 18g baskets?

Posted November 3, 2004 link

It came as the stock basket on the Isomacs and La Valentina. I bought extras at Chris' Coffee (link). I also picked up a similar ridgeless version at 1st-line.

Will I get a bit more volume in my cup if I use this basket? Is it in fact, a triple basket?  If not, what is the measurement in Grams for a triple basket?

More coffee grinds = more coffee. A triple basket is much, much bigger and holds 23 grams easily. I don't use triple baskets much although some cafes swear by them.

If you can dirrect me to a Canadian distributor who carries these baskets I would appreciate it very much.

I believe most of the vendors that advertise on this site will also ship over the border. Sorry, I don't have any experience with Canadian distributors.

-- Dan

 
www.home-barista.com
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ECM
Senior Member
ECM
Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 476
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia Canada
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Mazzer Robour E
Vac Pot: French Press
Drip: no
Roaster: Fresh Roast+8,  i-roast and...
Posted Wed Nov 3, 2004, 10:37am
Subject: Re: Volume - Small Return on 14g's - What A Tease! - (Repost)
 

Hey Dan:

Thanks so much for the info buddy.  Can you tell me, what is your average pour with that 18g basket?  I would assume it would be somewhere in the neighbourhood of about 1.75-2.0oz?
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HB
Senior Member


Joined: 3 Apr 2003
Posts: 2,913
Location: Cary, NC
Posted Wed Nov 3, 2004, 11:15am
Subject: Re: Volume - Small Return on 14g's - What A Tease! - (Repost)
 

Rick,

Yes, that's about right. To be honest, independent of the machine that I'm using, I prefer the 18g basket if it will fit. Now you've got me curious about this "smaller capacity" one that comes with the Giotto Premium, i.e., how hard is it to pull a true double with it. I don't expect it's Mission Impossible, but it's true that more grinds give you a wider margin of error, hence the popularity of bigger baskets.

As an aside, I use ~15-16 grams if Valentina has this funky brass adapter (right) in place instead of a standard dispersion screen (the adapter reduces the triple basket capacity to ~19 grams instead of the usual ~21-23 grams). I found limiting the head clearance to a few millimeters improves the extraction and increases the pour time. You can check by dropping a nickel on top of the puck and locking / unlocking. There should only be a very light impression.

-- Dan

HB: dispersion_screen_and_adapter.jpg
(Click for larger image)

 
www.home-barista.com
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