Posted Thu Aug 26, 2004, 2:22pm Subject: Why High End Machines?
In searching for an upgrade to my Silvia I've gone from looking at machines somwhat more expensive (Isomac Tea and the like), to those substantially more expensive (Pasquini Livia 90 and similar types), and now to the very expensive Rancilio S series and Epoca ($1,800 and up). As I understand it, the Rancilio units are semi-commercial in nature meaning they are designed for some heavy duty use.
As an avid reader of this forum, I know that "upgrade fever" is nothing unusual. However, I'm not experienced enough to easily justify to myself the expenditure of almost $2,000 to replace an espresso machine that already makes great coffee.
I love espresso, and the ritual of making it, so I'm perfectly willing to spend money to satisfy my obsession. But how much better is espresso made with one of these high end machines? Is there something about the commercial construction and design of these units that allow for better coffee (with the appropriate technique)? I can't say that I've had noticeably better espresso at the hands of barristas using fabulously complex commercial units, so it's not clear to me that cost, complexity, and heavy duty construction make for better espresso.
I strongly suspect that most members of this forum have at one time or another asked and answered these same questions. Any help in resolving this dilemma for me is appreciated. Don
malachi Senior Member Joined: 5 May 2002 Posts: 1,758 Location: SFCA Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Monster Mia (for now)_ Grinder: Monster Cimballi Junior Vac Pot: Not any more Drip: never Roaster: Ecco, Stumptown, Intelli,...
Posted Thu Aug 26, 2004, 2:57pm Subject: Re: Why High End Machines?
the espresso is not better, per se, from a more expensive (or "better") machine. but a "better" machine will usually make it far easier for a trained person to produce good espresso drinks consistently. when it comes right down to it... in general training helps more than an upgrade IMHO.
iginfect Senior Member Joined: 8 Dec 2003 Posts: 296 Location: herkimer new york Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: vetrano Grinder: mazzer mini Vac Pot: yama 5 cup Drip: melior french press Roaster: hot top kn-8828p
Posted Thu Aug 26, 2004, 3:04pm Subject: Re: Why High End Machines?
Maybe a PID is all you need. I drink straight espresso and rarely have coffee drinking guests. Ms Silvia is all I need, with a PID and an upgraded pf. An upgrade will not make better espresso.
gscace Senior Member Joined: 19 Dec 2001 Posts: 237 Location: Laytonsville, MD USA Expertise: I live coffee
Espresso: La Marzocco Linea 2AV, Astra... Grinder: 3 Mazzers Robur, Kony,... Vac Pot: Cona D, Hario Nouveau Drip: Technivorm Roaster: Has Garanti 1kg. electric
Posted Thu Aug 26, 2004, 3:42pm Subject: Re: Why High End Machines?
Hi:
Having just gone through this, I can answer pretty well. The stock Silvia is not all that consistent, although you can improve things by temperature surfing and otherwise working on your technique. Things get waaaay better as soon as you PID the machine and you dot the T and cross the I when you do the pressure control mod. Once these things are done to the Silvia, then the Silvia will make espresso as good as pretty near anything. I now own an Astra Gourmet GS that I got from ebay and rebuilt to nearly as new. It does not make better espresso than my PID'd Silvia, or at least not yet. I'm still figuring out how to surf the e-61 group and I'm working on temperature measuring stuff so that I can figure it out as well as i did for the Silvia. Even when I do figure it out, I expect any improvement to be minimal since the Silvias issues are pretty well sussed out for the duty cycle that we hobbyists impose on our machines. We don't ask them to produce shot after shot, one every 50 seconds.
Where the pro machines shine is in the steaming / frothing department, and in their recovery time while frothing. I don't have first hand experience with the Tea, Millenium, Expobar ilk, but the Astra and prolly the Ranciliio S26 as well have big boilers and big heaters so they can produce prodigious steam without breaking a sweat. For grins I made two cappas back to back where I pre-filled two frothing pitchers, ground coffee for two espressos, and built the drinks by loading the portafilter, starting the shot, frothing the milk, stopping ths shot at 25 seconds, pouring the milk, knocking out the spent coffee and repeating. The Astra's boiler pressure gauge stayed within the pressurestat's deadband (15 to 17.5psi) without any trouble. I suspect I could have gone on making drinks at that speed for a good long time. Now I don't need that sort of capability all the time, but we do have dinner parties and the folks we invite aren't afraid of drinking cappas in the evening. So it's pretty cool.
I've gone on record saying that a properly regulated vibe pump can go head to head with a rotary pump. Now that I own machines with both, I say that the only advantages I see in the rotary are the ability to deaal with small amounts of vapor that may be present in the hx loop since the rotary pump machines are always at least at the water line pressure inside. Vibe pump machines may be at atmospheric pressure inside the plumbing when the pump is not operating. Consequently steam pockets may form, which must be displaced by liquid water when the pump is activated. This is an issue with the Silvia for sure and I am careful to keep the pressure inside it high enough to prevent this from happening. The second advantage of the rotary pump is that it sounds cool - a whirring noise rather than buzzing. This fact may matter and may not.
Spending 2K on a machine isn't for everyone. I know my wife would have plenty to say if I did so. Fortunately I can work on these things and I'm not afraid of getting into the guts. And fortunately for us, the catering market makes similar demands on a machine to what we would desire in a really good machine - rotary pump, massive group, decent boiler size and heater size in a relatively small package.
marcus Senior Member Joined: 29 Jan 2003 Posts: 115 Location: NC Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: La Spaziale;Isomac... Grinder: Mazzer Mini;Rancilio Rocky Vac Pot: Bodum mini-eSantos Drip: only at work Roaster: BBQ drum, Heatgun
Posted Thu Aug 26, 2004, 3:49pm Subject: Re: Why High End Machines?
Having been where you are, I would recommend that you simply go to WLL or Chris and buy the Isomac Tea for 800 or 900 respectively. You are getting a very high level of performance, quality, and serviceability for that price. If you can swing it, get it plumbed in at the same time. You will not believe the difference between temp surfing a Silvia to get good shots and effortless pulling and steaming with the Tea. Is a $1700 Wega that much better, or even a $1500 Valentina or Giotto? I don't think so. Maybe the Expobar beats the Tea for performance/price ratio, but it can't be much. For home use, I think you can be very comfortable with Isomac performance for the long run. Unless you're going to open an espresso cart on your front lawn...
Posted Thu Aug 26, 2004, 3:54pm Subject: Re: Why High End Machines?
G'day Don,
I contracted upgrade fever as well ... part of espressodom huh ! <smile> I was looking to up grade from Silvia (only two months old -bad case of fever) but the reasons were not potentially better espresso as I'm getting some great espresso now.
The first thing I looked at was ..wouldnt it be great to have hot water ready anytime ...for a cup of tea for visitors/wife etc. Leave machine on and use hot water wand ... great eliminates kettle off bench etc . But then I found out water that is heated for some time loses its oxygen content somewhat which makes for a bad cup of tea apparently. So that cancelled my hot water on tap idea. The thermal stability of the grouphead (E61's?) compared to Silvia would be a distinct advantage for repeatability though ...
Plumbing in would be great also. I flush Silvia's GHead/PF after every shot ..so some days I can top up the tank 3-4 times from water filter held over tank ...PITA really ?
If you have to make a few lattes, cappas etc being able to steam and pull shots at the same time or straight after each other the HX/TB machines would be a godsend compared to Silvia. Larger tanks, larger drip trays etc etc.
I've looked at it a fair bit as well and have decided at upgrade time I'd go for a machine around the size/price and type .... of say a La Scala Butterfly. $1600 US (around $2200 Aust.) would see you with sumthin pretty flash ??
A La Marzocco or Cimbali would be a rats gold tooth but the value with their prices might not be there.
And like you I still find it amazing that I can walk into a cafe with a MegaDollar and sized machine and still make a better tasting espresso at home from Silvia ...
Yann Senior Member Joined: 1 Dec 2002 Posts: 226 Location: Wellington (New Zealand) Expertise: I like coffee
Espresso: La Marzocco GS/3 Grinder: Mazzer Kony-E
Posted Thu Aug 26, 2004, 4:31pm Subject: Re: Why High End Machines?
The Silvia is a great machine. I've had my one for about a year and a half, after a short bout with a FrancisFrancis X1. I didn't particularly like the X1, and liked it's form over it's function. Though I must admit that at the time, did not have a grinder. The Silvia has been fantastic and has pretty much suited my needs. I can't say I make the greatest espresso, or pay even remotely as much attention to detail as someone like Greg, or Randy (G). It would be nice to be able to, but I'm not as technically inclined as they are, and am likely to cause serious damage to them. Really, I just don't go there. The same with computers, ie, no overclocking etc.
At any rate, I have found that I'd very much like the ability to make espresso AND froth milk at the same time. This is especially true when entertaining friends, as using the Silvia to make a lot of coffees (milk based, or should I say espresso based?) is rather time consuming. The quality of the coffee (mainly due to my ineptitude) begins to take a hit. That is perhaps one reason, being able to undertake dual functions at the same time. And also perhaps things such as temperature stability, and being able to make coffee more consistently without me having to tinker.
I've always toyed with the idea of upgrading. I think it's in my blood. For that reason, I have at this moment, a brand new Rancilio Epoca 1-group sitting in a box behind me. It was just delivered about an hour ago and is pretty much waiting to be opened (unfortunately for me, I'm at work, and it's only midday). I'm yet to try it out, though I am really itching to. I'll be saying good bye to my Silvia soon, which will be a little sad, but so it goes.
I am very happy with my Rancilio products. A factor in why I chose the Epoca. Otherwise, the price for E-61 machines are quite close to each other here in New Zealand, and the difference to the Epoca was not great, if anything really. The Epoca does look rather industrial, but I figure it will last me a long time (fingers crossed!), and should serve it's purpose well. I guess for me, it was a good sign that it was used in things like the CBC, as it can't be too bad if that was the case.
Anyhow, given how much I drink coffee, I've probably overstepped with this machine. Upgrade fever and all, though hopefully this will now shut me up. I'm sure I have other reasons as to why I have wanted to upgrade, which are true and valid reasons. But for now, I can't think of them, and am just wanting to find some lunch!
Posted Sat Aug 28, 2004, 11:53am Subject: Re: Why High End Machines?
Thanks for all the responses. I'm getting the impression that to espressoheads a high end machine like the Rancilio Epoca is similar to a Hasselblad camera for photographers (like me): it doesn't guarantee better results, but any limitation is due to your technique, not your equipment. For enthusiasts of any persuasion, it's an awesome feeling working with equipment that offers no constraints to doing your best. Don
malachi Senior Member Joined: 5 May 2002 Posts: 1,758 Location: SFCA Expertise: I love coffee
Espresso: Monster Mia (for now)_ Grinder: Monster Cimballi Junior Vac Pot: Not any more Drip: never Roaster: Ecco, Stumptown, Intelli,...
Posted Sat Aug 28, 2004, 12:08pm Subject: Re: Why High End Machines?
well stated, with the possible caveat that far more serious photographers are limited by equipment unless they buy a 'blad or "comparable" (grin) setup.
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