Our Valued Sponsor
OpinionsConsumer ReviewsGuides and How TosCoffeeGeek ReviewsResourcesForums
Espresso: Espresso Machines
Best commercial single group machine
Home Espresso Machines
Watch videos with Gail & Kat, Rocket, Jura Capresso, Saeco, Rancilio, Quick Mill, Nespresso
www.seattlecoffeegear.com
 
Not Logged in: Log In to Postlog in
New Topics updated topics   New Posts new posts   Unanswered Posts new unanswered  
Search Discussion Board search   Discussion Board FAQ faq   Signup sign up  
Discussions > Espresso > Machines > Best commercial...  
view previous topic | view next topic | view all topics
showing page 4 of 4 first page previous page
Author Messages
onthego
Senior Member
onthego
Joined: 3 Jul 2005
Posts: 231
Location: Anchorage, AK
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Salvatore One Black, Silvia...
Grinder: Macap M4 Stepless, Rocky DL,...
Drip: Krups
Posted Fri Mar 7, 2014, 5:07pm
Subject: Re: Best commercial single group machine
 

JasonBrandtLewis Said:

Ed, it's not like we make this $#|+ up, you know.  On the other hand, to be fair, it's not like there are double-blind scientific tests on the topic, either . . .

I would recommend that you check out the following, many of which include temperature graphs, profiles, and/or personal experience, from people far wiser than I.  A PID is more robust and should last longer than a pressurestat, and while the adjustability of the boiler temperature via PID is often tighter than with a pressurestat, the bottom line is that it depends upon the pressurestat (i.e.: some have a tighter deadband that others).  However . . .

PID on a HX...this is my thinking, is it flawed?
PID on a HX machine?
PID versus HX Machine Temp Management- Shouldn't End Result Be The Same?
From Ken Fox, who PID'd his HX machines, and then switched to a GS/3, HX and PID: Incompatible?

Then, there is this from Randy Glass:


Or this quote from the OP on HX Heaven or 1 Boiler from HB:  
-- say 8-10 drinks weekdays, more on weekends.  If I had the machine PID'd, I wouldn't have had to do that; were my machine burning through pressurestats, I'd get a PID and stop replacing pressurestats.  But once in 6 or 7 years, I can live with that.  

I would never buy an SBDU or an DB without it being PID'd, but my shots are very stable, very repeatable (as measuring water temperature at the brewhead), and I have no desire, no need, to PID my HX -- which would be of dubious benefit anyway.

Posted February 28, 2014 link

Jason.
Thanks for taking the time to dig those threads up.  I remember reading them several years ago and at the time being of the same mind regarding PID controllers for HX espresso makers, that is that it didn't make a lot of sense to go to the expense and trouble to control HX boiler temperatures with a PID.  It still would not if a user planned to keep the boiler pressure at 1.1 to 1.3 bars.    A pressurestat will do that as well as a PID.  However, adding a PID to my HX would make life easier since 90% of the time it is used to make straight espresso shots.  I normally make 1 to 2 milk drinks in the PM and that is when I need to have increased boiler pressure.  A dual temperature HX controller would allow me to run the machine in two modes, a straight espresso shot mode and a conventional HX mode.  CoffeeIke called it a 1 1/2 boiler.   I would call it a dual mode machine.   In the espresso shot mode I would keep the boiler at .5 - .6 bar. In the traditional HX mode I would run it at 1.1 bar.   CoffeeIke's experience was that at .6 bars  he could walk up to the machine and brew an espresso with no need to pull a warming or cooling shot.  I agree with the 5 bullets that Ken Fox posted regarding adding a PID to his Junior as well as his conclusion.

I think that a PID would enhance the usability and functionality of an HX, make it a bit more user friendly.  

What I disagreed with was the statement that a PID was useless on an HX machine.   I completely agree with the statement that a PID is not useful in regulating brewing temperatures when operating the boiler at typical HX temperatures.

Ed
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
Buckley
Senior Member


Joined: 25 Jan 2011
Posts: 423
Location: Internet
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Fri Mar 7, 2014, 6:24pm
Subject: Re: Best commercial single group machine
 

Rick,
You are asking the wrong people.
Or perhaps potentially right people who are wasting your time.
While the precious opinions expressed on this thread are undoubedly hard-won knowledge born of uncompromising dedication, they are off topic.
Who services your Strada? I am not going to google the coffee service repair shops in the Bay Area - that will be your job.  In these tough economic times, I am seeing a lot of auctions of reconditioned or as-is coffee equipment.  I would be surprised if someone did not have a one group, serviceable, code-compliant reconditioned espresso machine.  Perhaps you will have to search out in other metropolitan areas, even as far away as Vegas or Dallas.  It is not too hard to see online the character of the coffee service org. and to discriminate between those who just want to sell subscription contracts and those who have an active and competent resale stock.  I have always been impressed by the reconditioned machines sitting around Espresso RMI, inc. of Dallas, for instance.  How about 'Espresso Machine Experts' in Shelby township, just outside of Detroit?
And you won't have to shell out $6K or even $4K for your machine because your Strada should have a lot of trade-in value.  Or are you downsizing to raise money?  As I said, times are tough.  I hope not for you.

Buckley

P.S. A Laurentis Astoria was on Craigslist recently in Milwaukee, a commercial single group is linsted on Craiglist to night out of Everett, Washington.  There are more effective sites than this forum, but you already know that.  Now.
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
onthego
Senior Member
onthego
Joined: 3 Jul 2005
Posts: 231
Location: Anchorage, AK
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Salvatore One Black, Silvia...
Grinder: Macap M4 Stepless, Rocky DL,...
Drip: Krups
Posted Fri Mar 7, 2014, 6:40pm
Subject: Re: Best commercial single group machine
 

calblacksmith Said:

ED,

FOR THE PURPOSE OF CONTROLLING BREW TEMP, A PID IS WORTHLESS ON A HX MACHINE.

Posted February 28, 2014 link

Wayne.  Agreed, a PID will not help regulate brew temperatures on an HX operated at typical HX boiler temperatures.

It is not a rant, it is a statement of fact.

It  becomes a rant when  the same statement gets repeated over and over and over again in a series of posts, as it morphs into all caps.    

It is true for all HX machines, regardless of make, model or manufacturer.

True, but I think you would agree that not all HX machines are created equal.  I suspect that some HX designs might benefit more from a PID than others.  The so called "dragon" machines can become difficult to use and  predictable brew temps are not always easily determined.  Your Junior has a reputation for being user friendly with easily determined repeatable brew temperatures. And I believe that the HX on it is more than just a straight pipe.

Ed
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
MikeReilly
Senior Member


Joined: 28 Oct 2007
Posts: 304
Location: Vancouver Island
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Cimbali Junior Gaggia...
Grinder: Pharos CC45 Mazzer Mini
Drip: Cuisinart
Roaster: Behmor, I-Roast 2, Popper
Posted Fri Mar 7, 2014, 8:05pm
Subject: Re: Best commercial single group machine
 

onthego Said:

Wayne.  Agreed, a PID will not help regulate brew temperatures on an HX operated at typical HX boiler temperatures.


It  becomes a rant when  the same statement gets repeated over and over and over again in a series of posts, as it morphs into all caps.    


True, but I think you would agree that not all HX machines are created equal.  I suspect that some HX designs might benefit more from a PID than others.  The so called "dragon" machines can become difficult to use and  predictable brew temps are not always easily determined.  Your Junior has a reputation for being user friendly with easily determined repeatable brew temperatures. And I believe that the HX on it is more than just a straight pipe.

Ed

Posted March 7, 2014 link

I think you started your objection to the statement "PID's are worthless for HX's" in an attempt to stop the thread from becoming derailed by discussion of HX vs. DB.  Unfortunately, this has failed epically.  If you wish to discuss PID'ing HX's, please consider a separate thread.

In response to the OP: everyone posting here suggesting that HX's are fine for your purpose are quite correct.  The difference in routine between the two machine types is very small.  Both machines require a flush before pulling a shot if the machine has sat for long (DB for a heating flush, HX for a cooling flush).  If you are pulling multiple shots back to back it matters even less.  DB's are also fine.  Both require staff to be trained properly, supervised reasonably regularly to ensure they remember their training, and occasional refreshers to keep them on top of their game.  If you insist on a commercial DB 1 group 220v you are essentially looking at a LM Linea.  However, I truly hope you stick with this as there are remarkably few establishments that serve good espresso based drinks.  Of course, you could just sell really good coffee, which is much easier.
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
boar_d_laze
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1,077
Location: Monrovia, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: La Cimbali M21 DT/1 Junior...
Grinder: Ceado E92; "Bunnzilla"
Vac Pot: Royal Coffee Maker
Drip: Chemex + Kone; Espro Press
Roaster: USRC Sample Roaster
Posted Fri Mar 7, 2014, 8:33pm
Subject: Re: Best commercial single group machine
 

onthego Said:

Wayne... I think you would agree that not all HX machines are created equal.  I suspect that some HX designs might benefit more from a PID than others.  The so called "dragon" machines can become difficult to use and  predictable brew temps are not always easily determined.  Your Junior has a reputation for being user friendly with easily determined repeatable brew temperatures. And I believe that the HX on it is more than just a straight pipe.

Posted March 7, 2014 link

Wayne doesn't have a Junior, I do.  Yes, the Junior is extremely friendly.  It's a "light duty" commercial machine and Rick might need something with larger boiler capacity -- like an Astoria Divina, Elektra T1, or Nuova Simonelli Appia.  I list those in particular because they're not only stable and easy to temp, but do pre-infusion as well.

Dragons are dragons because of the group, not the p-stat.  I agree that a dragon is inappropriate for most restaurant situations.  As it happens, very few true, commercial machines are dragons.  

The biggest thing that a single group, true commercial HX has over a single group, true commercial DB is price.

Rich
back to top
 View Profile Visit website Link to this post
skydragondave
Senior Member


Joined: 18 Feb 2013
Posts: 167
Location: Ontario, Canada
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: Commercial Only
Grinder: Commercial Only
Roaster: Has Garanti HG5
Posted Sat Mar 8, 2014, 7:49am
Subject: Re: Best commercial single group machine
 

The Nuova Simonelli Appia II, both single and two-group compact versions, is available in 208/240V 3100W with your choice of red, white or black body panels.
In a restaurant setting I would recommend a 2-group Compact machine. Cheaper than a fullsize two-group, compacts have a smaller footprint, throughput superior to a single-group, and can accommodate short bursts of high volume ideal for a restaurant setting where only a fraction of your patronage orders espresso-based drinks, but you may have to accommodate a party of 8 or 10 coming in who all order espressos and expect to be served at roughly the same time.
Looking at two-group compacts your options open up considerably for 220V units within your budget (less than a 1gr Linea MAP). If you are overly concerned about consistency you can use POD baskets and single pods to eliminate GDT mistakes, but be aware your cost per cup will triple.
Key to making a successful espresso program work in a restaurant is putting no more than two staff per shift in charge of the machine and holding them accountable for cup quality and machine sanitation. Delegate, train, enforce. And NEVER delegate the task of preparation to someone who doesn't - or won't - taste their own product because they don't like coffee. This is INSANITY! You have to taste your product to control quality, just like in the kitchen.
You need to make the front-end investment in staff training in order to command top dollar for espresso-based beverages. Once you do that, you can encourage clients to buy drinks with less milk. Discourage cappuccinos and lattes, encourage espressos, cortados, caffe macchiattos. Coffee-heavy drinks are more difficult to prepare, but much more profitable as milk hides offtastes but is very expensive disproportionate to what you can charge for those drinks.
Forget the talk of HX and PID in a commercial setting. Respectfully, in a commercial setting, there is no time to temp surf or do cooling flushes longer than 5 seconds - the customer is waiting. LMs serve better coffee due to the PID dual boiler, yes, but there's no reason a skilled restauranteur can't turn a good buck with any of the commonly available commercial units so long as there is a qualified technician available to keep it looked after. Good luck
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
Everman
Senior Member
Everman
Joined: 25 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,050
Location: Coffee Land
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Valentina Levetta, Elektra...
Grinder: Mazzer Mini
Roaster: Hottop
Posted Sat Mar 8, 2014, 12:24pm
Subject: Re: Best commercial single group machine
 

I don't think I read why you're getting rid of the two group Strada? It looks like you have a fine machine already.
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
JasonBrandtLewis
Senior Member
JasonBrandtLewis
Joined: 9 Dec 2005
Posts: 6,368
Location: Berkeley, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Elektra T1 - La Valentina -...
Grinder: Mahlkönig K30 Vario -...
Vac Pot: Yama 5-cup
Drip: CCD, Chemex
Roaster: No, no, not another...
Posted Sat Mar 8, 2014, 2:50pm
Subject: Re: Best commercial single group machine
 

And whoever trained your staff to work on the Strada can certainly them on a 1-group HX or DB . . .

 
A morning without coffee is sleep . . .
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
showing page 4 of 4 first page previous page
view previous topic | view next topic | view all topics
Discussions > Espresso > Machines > Best commercial...  
New Topics updated topics   New Posts new posts   Unanswered Posts new unanswered     Search Discussion Board search   Discussion Board FAQ faq   Signup sign up  
Not Logged in: Log In to Postlog in
Discussions Quick Jump:
Symbols: New Posts= New Posts since your last visit      No New Posts= No New Posts since last visit     Go to most recent post= Newest post
Forum Rules:
No profanity, illegal acts or personal attacks will be tolerated in these discussion boards.
No commercial posting of any nature will be tolerated; only private sales by private individuals, in the "Buy and Sell" forum.
No SEO style postings will be tolerated. SEO related posts will result in immediate ban from CoffeeGeek.
No cross posting allowed - do not post your topic to more than one forum, nor repost a topic to the same forum.
Who Can Read The Forum? Anyone can read posts in these discussion boards.
Who Can Post New Topics? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post new topics.
Who Can Post Replies? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post replies.
Can Photos be posted? Anyone can post photos in their new topics or replies.
Who can change or delete posts? Any CoffeeGeek member can edit their own posts. Only moderators can delete posts.
Probationary Period: If you are a new signup for CoffeeGeek, you cannot promote, endorse, criticise or otherwise post an unsolicited endorsement for any company, product or service in your first five postings.
Don't suffer bad espresso
Package deals on the best machines from Izzo, Quick Mill, VBM, La Marzocco & more.
www.clivecoffee.com
Home | Opinions | Consumer Reviews | Guides & How Tos | CoffeeGeek Reviews | Resources | Forums | Contact Us
CoffeeGeek.com, CoffeeGeek, and Coffee Geek, along with all associated content & images are copyright ©2000-2014 by Mark Prince, all rights reserved, unless otherwise indicated. Content, code, and images may not be reused without permission. Usage of this website signifies agreement with our Terms and Conditions. (0.377470016479)
Privacy Policy | Copyright Info | Terms and Conditions | CoffeeGeek Advertisers | RSS | Find us on Google+