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Rancilio Silvia V4?
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Discussions > Espresso > Machines > Rancilio Silvia...  
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1stline
Senior Member
1stline
Joined: 24 Jan 2002
Posts: 496
Location: Freehold, NJ USA
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: Undisclosed
Grinder: Indisclosed
Vac Pot: Bodum Electric
Drip: None
Roaster: None
Posted Thu Feb 13, 2014, 12:34pm
Subject: Re: Rancilio Silvia V4?
 

CMIN Said:

Considering they always raise the price with their "incremental upgrades" be funny to see how much worse of a value it is now lol. It's so far over priced, at least put a PID on it Rancillio at that price. It's already barely less than a CC1 which pretty much slaps it out of the box in everyway (larger boiler, full PID control, seperate thermoblock for steaming). The Le'Lit PL041 is like a hundred bucks cheaper and comes with a PID.

Posted February 12, 2014 link

To add fair balance... has anyone seen the ins and outs of both machines in person? We sell all three machines. Although the price may be very close on two machines, everyone needs to realize that just comparing features on a features list is NOT  always the best way to shop, nor select an espresso machine - however, most people do shop this way in the US. Yes, the CC1 is a feature rich machine with larger boiler, preinfusion timing, PID control, and separate aluminum thermoblock for steam. However, the Rancilio has a rock solid steel frame with no plastic undercarriage for the boiler, easier refill of the reservoir, stainless steel drip tray, and no teflon hoses. Some may not like the aluminum used for the CC1 steam thermoblock (years ago, another manufacturer had aluminum boilers with a lot of internal pitting).

From a technical perspective, the CC1 has to have a larger boiler. The bottom boiler plate seems to be made of brass, but the boiler is stainless. Since the wall seems to be thinner than the brass of the Silvia, there has to be more water (mass) to assist with temperature stability. The thermal probe on the CC1 is nicely inserted in through the bottom of the boiler. However, it would seem to be a bear to self-replace if it fails.

Both machines have the grouphead offset from the boiler. This is means not all the water in the boiler is evenly heating the grouphead. On the Rancilio, the water exits through an internal center pipe near the top of the boiler, travels downward through the boiler water into the boiler plate and then internally through the grouphead. On the CC1, it seems that the boiler water exits the boiler through a teflon pipe exposed to air at the top of the boiler and then through a 3 way valve and the grouphead. We have pictures on our web site. Sorry, I can not share here as they are not for the public domain.

Yes, the Lelit is $100 cheaper, but the boiler is smaller (it is directly positioned over the grouphead) and there will be a temperature swing during the shot. The PL041TQE frame thickness seems similar to the CC1 along with the teflon tubes and plastic drip tray. I have suggested to Bill to thicken the frame on the CC1, but he replied that it was not in the plans. We were ok with that as the selling price would definitely go higher.

Please note that I am not here to pick on any machine (as we sell all three), nor any member. Each machine has its own feature sets - some obvious, and some not so obvious. My point is that each customer needs to decide which is more or most important for his/her needs and budget. At the end of the day, all three machines can produce a decent shot. I say decent because I am comparing it to machines that go in upwards of $13,000 which produce phenomenal shots!

And, yes, there is rumour that Rancilio prices are going up - many do not understand that the cost of materials (stainless, brass, etc) go up, not down every year. Kick in the worsening Euro exchange rate for US customers, and we all have a double whammy!

 
Sincerely,
Jim Piccinich
Business Partner
1st-line Equipment, LLC
www.1st-line.com

Follow us on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/1stline
Twitter: http://twitter.com/1stline
Blog: http://1st-line.blogspot.com/
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/1stlineespresso
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emradguy
Senior Member
emradguy
Joined: 31 Mar 2011
Posts: 3,061
Location: Houston
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Duetto II; Twist v2
Grinder: M Major, Macap M4 x2, VDD...
Drip: Espro presses; Aeropress
Roaster: H-B "List of Favorites"
Posted Thu Feb 13, 2014, 1:45pm
Subject: Re: Rancilio Silvia V4?
 

Jim,

As always, your insight is always greatly appreciated and very helpful!  

Totally off topic, I'm wondering if you could perhaps find an inquiry I made through your website right after the new Motta items email blast went out - it was within a day or two.  I submitted a bunch of questions, but it was never answered.  As an avid Motta fan, I was hoping to get more detail about some of the items.

 
.
Always remember the most important thing is what ends up in your cup!
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1stline
Senior Member
1stline
Joined: 24 Jan 2002
Posts: 496
Location: Freehold, NJ USA
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: Undisclosed
Grinder: Indisclosed
Vac Pot: Bodum Electric
Drip: None
Roaster: None
Posted Fri Feb 14, 2014, 2:45pm
Subject: Re: Rancilio Silvia V4?
 

emradguy Said:

Jim,

As always, your insight is always greatly appreciated and very helpful!  

Totally off topic, I'm wondering if you could perhaps find an inquiry I made through your website right after the new Motta items email blast went out - it was within a day or two.  I submitted a bunch of questions, but it was never answered.  As an avid Motta fan, I was hoping to get more detail about some of the items.

Posted February 13, 2014 link

Thanks. Sorry about that! We have been dealing with data server crashes, back up server crashes, snowstorms and power outages for the last 30 days here. I apologize that the email fell through the cracks. On some of the questions, we had to ask Motta and wait for their response, then with all the stuff going on, a staff member of mine dropped the ball in failing in forwarding you the answers after updating our web site pages. I will forward you the email in a few moments.

 
Sincerely,
Jim Piccinich
Business Partner
1st-line Equipment, LLC
www.1st-line.com

Follow us on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/1stline
Twitter: http://twitter.com/1stline
Blog: http://1st-line.blogspot.com/
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/1stlineespresso
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emradguy
Senior Member
emradguy
Joined: 31 Mar 2011
Posts: 3,061
Location: Houston
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Duetto II; Twist v2
Grinder: M Major, Macap M4 x2, VDD...
Drip: Espro presses; Aeropress
Roaster: H-B "List of Favorites"
Posted Fri Feb 14, 2014, 3:50pm
Subject: Re: Rancilio Silvia V4?
 

I just saw your email. Thanks very much!

 
.
Always remember the most important thing is what ends up in your cup!
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kray
Senior Member


Joined: 26 Sep 2012
Posts: 19
Location: St. Paul, MN
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Vibiemme Junior HX
Grinder: Macap MX
Posted Sat Feb 15, 2014, 9:03am
Subject: Re: Rancilio Silvia V4?
 

1stline Said:

To add fair balance... has anyone seen the ins and outs of both machines in person? We sell all three machines. Although the price may be very close on two machines, everyone needs to realize that just comparing features on a features list is NOT  always the best way to shop, nor select an espresso machine - however, most people do shop this way in the US. Yes, the CC1 is a feature rich machine with larger boiler, preinfusion timing, PID control, and separate aluminum thermoblock for steam. However, the Rancilio has a rock solid steel frame with no plastic undercarriage for the boiler, easier refill of the reservoir, stainless steel drip tray, and no teflon hoses. Some may not like the aluminum used for the CC1 steam thermoblock (years ago, another manufacturer had aluminum boilers with a lot of internal pitting).

From a technical perspective, the CC1 has to have a larger boiler. The bottom boiler plate seems to be made of brass, but the boiler is stainless. Since the wall seems to be thinner than the brass of the Silvia, there has to be more water (mass) to assist with temperature stability. The thermal probe on the CC1 is nicely inserted in through the bottom of the boiler. However, it would seem to be a bear to self-replace if it fails.

Both machines have the grouphead offset from the boiler. This is means not all the water in the boiler is evenly heating the grouphead. On the Rancilio, the water exits through an internal center pipe near the top of the boiler, travels downward through the boiler water into the boiler plate and then internally through the grouphead. On the CC1, it seems that the boiler water exits the boiler through a teflon pipe exposed to air at the top of the boiler and then through a 3 way valve and the grouphead. We have pictures on our web site. Sorry, I can not share here as they are not for the public domain.

Posted February 13, 2014 link

This is EXACTLY why I am struggling to figure out how to replace my Silvia. On paper a CC1 seems a no brainer, but my Silvia run well for me for 22 years. And for that reason I keep coming back to build quality (which can also translate to fewer features... especially electronic wiz-bang features). I am not criticizing the CC1 here, just not sure if it will stand up over time. In fact if I could make up my mind, I'd just run off and get another Silvia, but if I put myself on a sub $1000 budget, there are other machines that are appealing (Silvano etc...), or finding a nice used HX machine. Someone on this forum contacted me about selling their Vibiemme Domobar Junior, which looked appealing, but I never heard back from them... maybe they had second thoughts.
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1stline
Senior Member
1stline
Joined: 24 Jan 2002
Posts: 496
Location: Freehold, NJ USA
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: Undisclosed
Grinder: Indisclosed
Vac Pot: Bodum Electric
Drip: None
Roaster: None
Posted Sat Feb 15, 2014, 10:54am
Subject: Re: Rancilio Silvia V4?
 

kray Said:

This is EXACTLY why I am struggling to figure out how to replace my Silvia. On paper a CC1 seems a no brainer, but my Silvia run well for me for 22 years. And for that reason I keep coming back to build quality (which can also translate to fewer features... especially electronic wiz-bang features). I am not criticizing the CC1 here, just not sure if it will stand up over time. In fact if I could make up my mind, I'd just run off and get another Silvia, but if I put myself on a sub $1000 budget, there are other machines that are appealing (Silvano etc...), or finding a nice used HX machine. Someone on this forum contacted me about selling their Vibiemme Domobar Junior, which looked appealing, but I never heard back from them... maybe they had second thoughts.

Posted February 15, 2014 link

Yes, it is a very difficult choice on paper. This is why we have customers who visit us in New Jersey from as far away as California, Florida, and even Canada to view machines. Some commercial customers and some home machine customers.

If one is unable to visit, it is best to call dealers who sell the machines that are of interest. My suggestion is to only do this when one is close to purchasing. This is just respect out of all the dealers time who sell machines. Please note that I used the word dealers, and not retailers. Most dealers have service departments who not only service the machines, but also stock the parts and solve problems. Retailers on the other hand, just sell you a machine and pass the 'problem buck' on to someone else down the road. Just to be open, 1st-line does support select retailers in this regard on certain products.

When one contacts a dealer, the dealer should determine one's needs, suggest a good fit with a few machines based on need, desire, and budget as well as offer the trade-offs of each. By trade-offs, I mean benefit vs possible detriment. Examples... Best price does not always equate to best service.  Plastic in cheaper machines tends to crack  and discolor while stainless of lower quality can rust versus high quality stainless is softer. This stainless is lighter for the machine to ship for repair while also more likely to damage in transport. These are the things one can sometimes pick up between the lines in consumer product reviews or from speaking to dealers who will almost never put this in print.

 
Sincerely,
Jim Piccinich
Business Partner
1st-line Equipment, LLC
www.1st-line.com

Follow us on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/1stline
Twitter: http://twitter.com/1stline
Blog: http://1st-line.blogspot.com/
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/1stlineespresso
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