Our Valued Sponsor
OpinionsConsumer ReviewsGuides and How TosCoffeeGeek ReviewsResourcesForums
Espresso: Espresso Machines
Buying a machine for the first time (noob alert)
Rocket R58 Double Boiler
Rocket Espresso R58 Double Boiler -  Everything you need for the perfect shot!
www.seattlecoffeegear.com
 
Not Logged in: Log In to Postlog in
New Topics updated topics   New Posts new posts   Unanswered Posts new unanswered  
Search Discussion Board search   Discussion Board FAQ faq   Signup sign up  
Discussions > Espresso > Machines > Buying a machine...  
view previous topic | view next topic | view all topics
showing page 2 of 5 first page | last page previous page | next page
Author Messages
boar_d_laze
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1,402
Location: Monrovia, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: La Cimbali M21 DT/1 Junior...
Grinder: Ceado E92; "Bunnzilla"
Vac Pot: Royal Coffee Maker
Drip: Chemex + Kone; Espro Press
Roaster: USRC Sample Roaster
Posted Mon Feb 3, 2014, 9:27am
Subject: Re: Buying a machine for the first time (noob alert)
 

Just to answer your question without lecturing you on what you should do:

I'm taking the liberty of bumping the top of your range from $1700 to $2000 because that's where the Strega, QM 67 and Brewtus iv live.

The best espresso machine for $2K or under is the Bezzera Strega; but it's a lever.  I've never used the Strega, and am not a lever fan myself.  But it's been on the market long enough and enough knowledgeable people have entered long-term affairs with it, that we can judge accordingly.  

There are a bunch of mid-high, prosumer E-61HXs in the $1500 - $2000 range.  They're built of the same parts, housed in similar boxes, and are -- by and large -- much of a muchness.  There are a few stinkers, but no real standouts. Choose by looks and features, since they'll deliver the same cup of coffee given the same beans, grinders and techniques.  Then come back here and make sure it's not something with a bad rep.

The Breville BDB is a very high performing double boiler, with ALL the features anyone's heart could desire -- but it's neither professional nor prosumer.  It's a lightly built, residential appliance, assembled in Asia, which happens to be able to deliver outstanding performance with a great deal of user friendliness.  The next most affordable DBs are the QM 67, and Brewtus iv.  Neither is as fully featured as the BDB, and neither will outperform it; in fact they're more likely to underperform it, and less conveniently at that.  Both are more heavily and more traditionally built, and assembled in Europe. It's a good guess that each of the European machines would outlast the Breville.  

GRINDER GRINDER GRINDER

Now cometh the lecture:
Your plan to buy an expensive, high-performing espresso machine and run next door to use someone else's grinder sucks.

While it's true that coffee for drip brewing noticeably stales in fifteen minutes, coffee ground for espresso noticeably degrades in about two minutes, becoming completely unacceptable in about five.    

Everything everyone said about dialing-in is right.  I suppose it could be done running back and forth between buildings, but it would be far from easy to dial-in without being able to test each adjustment immediately and make several necessary adjustments and their taste-tests in quick succession.  

If you think your plan will lead to good espresso in the short term you're deluding yourself.  I don't know why you want to have the machine without the grinder NOW, as opposed to waiting until you've saved enough... perhaps you have an excellent reason; even if only that the itch, unscratched, is driving you nuts.  It's not for me to say or judge.

Done with that lecture.  Time for another:

For whatever reasons, machines are inherently sexier and more interesting than grinders.  However, when you buy a good, better, or excellent espresso machine, you're essentially buying a piece of equipment to showcase the grinder's performance.  NOT the other way around.

The Vario and Mini are each good grinders.  The Vario is feature packed, and outperforms its price; while the Mini is built like a rock.  The Baratza and Mazzer grind well enough to feed the machines mentioned above, but each of those machines is good enough to reflect the superiority of better grinders.  There are always compromises and limitations; it just depends where you want them to fall.  

BDL
back to top
 View Profile Visit website Link to this post
Marbos
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Feb 2014
Posts: 21
Location: Ottawa
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Mon Feb 3, 2014, 10:50am
Subject: Re: Buying a machine for the first time (noob alert)
 

Thanks for the lectures, they are appreciated!

The main reason for not waiting until I can get the grinder is so I can relieve the itch and I do understand not having the grinder will make life and the taste of my espresso harsh but as I said prior I now drink from a mokapot and Starbucks so I'm thinking I'll still have better then I do now (with having to grind next door)?

As for the $2000 range once you add our lovely tax I'm up another couple $100, I've already taken tax into consideration when saying $1700 which is what the Bezzera Musica costs...

So that's why I was wondering if having an E-61 vs not like in a bz10 would be a huge benefit for extraction/quality or is it something you can achieve without? Just trying to get best bang for buck without having to regret it later and good quality shots (once grinder is purchased of course). Also which brand in that price range is better is my main concern too for longevity/quality.
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
CMIN
Senior Member


Joined: 14 Jun 2012
Posts: 1,456
Location: South FL
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Crossland CC1
Grinder: Baratza Preciso
Posted Mon Feb 3, 2014, 11:41am
Subject: Re: Buying a machine for the first time (noob alert)
 

Marbos Said:

Thanks for the lectures, they are appreciated!

The main reason for not waiting until I can get the grinder is so I can relieve the itch and I do understand not having the grinder will make life and the taste of my espresso harsh but as I said prior I now drink from a mokapot and Starbucks so I'm thinking I'll still have better then I do now (with having to grind next door)?

As for the $2000 range once you add our lovely tax I'm up another couple $100, I've already taken tax into consideration when saying $1700 which is what the Bezzera Musica costs...

So that's why I was wondering if having an E-61 vs not like in a bz10 would be a huge benefit for extraction/quality or is it something you can achieve without? Just trying to get best bang for buck without having to regret it later and good quality shots (once grinder is purchased of course). Also which brand in that price range is better is my main concern too for longevity/quality.

Posted February 3, 2014 link

Possibly not, espresso process magnifies everything like faults/taste that would be passible in other coffee means b/c it's concentrated, so it could be 10x worse then even Charbucks in a Moka lol. Grinder next door is dialed for their use, and they pry don't even have it dialed right anyway since the Rancillio grinders are generally stuck in diners and places like that that have no clue what their doing, I've never seen one in a shop that knows what their doing as there are much better grinders for commercial in that range. Plus I wonder how gunked up and oily it is inside as they pry don't clean it much if at all, then you have retention so what you may go to grind yourself will be tainted with the left over old residues etc and stale grinds b/c of the retention. And you need fresh roasted beans, espresso can't be made with anything else. There's really no sense in getting nice machine and waiting on a grinder as what if you go next door, do your thing, and your shots are 20 second or less gushers, spritzing, and tasting way under-extracted etc... nasty.

Bezzera BZ10 is a good machine and good group. Your budget is there, so I don't know why you can get that and have to wait on a grinder. If your going to spend 1700 on a machine, just get the Bezzera, or something cheaper. I know idrinkcoffee up there but I don't know what retailers your looking at as some carry different machines/models.

Hope your getting fresh roasted beans too ;) , grinder and beans are more important than the machine
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
emradguy
Senior Member
emradguy
Joined: 31 Mar 2011
Posts: 3,228
Location: Houston
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Duetto II; Twist v2
Grinder: M Major, Macap M4, Pharos,...
Drip: Espro presses; Aeropress
Roaster: H-B "List of Favorites"
Posted Mon Feb 3, 2014, 11:52am
Subject: Re: Buying a machine for the first time (noob alert)
 

boar_d_laze Said:

GRINDER GRINDER GRINDER

Now cometh the lecture:
Your plan to buy an expensive, high-performing espresso machine and run next door to use someone else's grinder sucks.

Posted February 3, 2014 link

Rich, how do you really feel?  LOL!  Actually, I have to give a big +1 to that succinct assessment. (though as you know, I tend to be a little more gentler in saying the same thing).

boar_d_laze Said:

Done with that lecture.  Time for another:

For whatever reasons, machines are inherently sexier and more interesting than grinders.  However, when you buy a good, better, or excellent espresso machine, you're essentially buying a piece of equipment to showcase the grinder's performance.  NOT the other way around.

Posted February 3, 2014 link

This is the essence of what so many of us have been trying to communicate!  VERY, very well put, my friend!

 
.
Always remember the most important thing is what ends up in your cup!
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
Marbos
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Feb 2014
Posts: 21
Location: Ottawa
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Mon Feb 3, 2014, 11:57am
Subject: Re: Buying a machine for the first time (noob alert)
 

I was really leaning towards the BZ10 plus Vario and yes was going to go through idrinkcoffee.com since they are the closest and very competitive in prices! If I'm not going to regret the BZ10 over the Musica then I may end up going with that combo and get my grinder at the same time.
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
takeshi
Senior Member
takeshi
Joined: 12 Oct 2002
Posts: 1,006
Location: Houston
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Alex Duetto 3.0
Grinder: Super Jolly
Roaster: Amaya Roasting
Posted Mon Feb 3, 2014, 12:01pm
Subject: Re: Buying a machine for the first time (noob alert)
 

Marbos Said:

I totally get the grinder being a huge deal, knowing my habits I tend to want to upgrade things fairly quickly and in doing so I try my hardest now not to make a purchase  that I will regret

Posted February 3, 2014 link

If you totally get the importance of the grinder then you'll realize that you'll regret leaving it as an afterthought or later purchase.
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
Marbos
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Feb 2014
Posts: 21
Location: Ottawa
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Mon Feb 3, 2014, 12:29pm
Subject: Re: Buying a machine for the first time (noob alert)
 

I agree with everyone's comments for getting the grinder at the same time. Just as I said I have an itch to get the machine first and was gonna go without a grinder (using my neighbors temporarily) for at most 2 months. The main purpose of my thread was to figure out in my budget what machine would be the best as I can buy it first and get to know it etc where if I bought a grinder first (full well knowing it's important)I can't sit there and toy with it until I get the machine :)
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
emradguy
Senior Member
emradguy
Joined: 31 Mar 2011
Posts: 3,228
Location: Houston
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Duetto II; Twist v2
Grinder: M Major, Macap M4, Pharos,...
Drip: Espro presses; Aeropress
Roaster: H-B "List of Favorites"
Posted Mon Feb 3, 2014, 1:04pm
Subject: Re: Buying a machine for the first time (noob alert)
 

this just popped up on the BST forum, within the past hour...

http://coffeegeek.com/forums/members/buysell/657671

 
.
Always remember the most important thing is what ends up in your cup!
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
calblacksmith
Moderator
calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 7,949
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Mon Feb 3, 2014, 1:09pm
Subject: Re: Buying a machine for the first time (noob alert)
 

Have you considered the BZ 07? It is a very similar machine to the 10 inside the case, same heater, same boiler etc. It costs a little less as you can buy the volumetric dosed version for $1599
Click Here (www.1st-line.com)
and the semi auto version for $1199
Click Here (www.1st-line.com)
thus giving you money to get a grinder too.
I don't need to say YET AGAIN how important the grinder is, do I? It is pretty much impossible to "do" espresso without a grinder of your own that is espresso worthy.

As others have said, machines come up in the BST forum all the time, well hit or miss I suppose but your money will go a LOT further when you can get a reliable used machine.


Ron, both of those listings were good catches, nice work. Quality equipment and still under budget including shipping.

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
back to top
 View Profile Visit website Link to this post
Marbos
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Feb 2014
Posts: 21
Location: Ottawa
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Mon Feb 3, 2014, 1:10pm
Subject: Re: Buying a machine for the first time (noob alert)
 

emradguy Said:

this just popped up on the BST forum, within the past hour...

http://coffeegeek.com/forums/members/buysell/657671

Posted February 3, 2014 link

That's really tempting but from SoCal to north of the boarder (north of syracuse) it will cost me another $100+ in shipping etc, for a few bucks more I'm better off going with a refurb?

Thanks for the heads up!!
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
showing page 2 of 5 first page | last page previous page | next page
view previous topic | view next topic | view all topics
Discussions > Espresso > Machines > Buying a machine...  
New Topics updated topics   New Posts new posts   Unanswered Posts new unanswered     Search Discussion Board search   Discussion Board FAQ faq   Signup sign up  
Not Logged in: Log In to Postlog in
Discussions Quick Jump:
Symbols: New Posts= New Posts since your last visit      No New Posts= No New Posts since last visit     Go to most recent post= Newest post
Forum Rules:
No profanity, illegal acts or personal attacks will be tolerated in these discussion boards.
No commercial posting of any nature will be tolerated; only private sales by private individuals, in the "Buy and Sell" forum.
No SEO style postings will be tolerated. SEO related posts will result in immediate ban from CoffeeGeek.
No cross posting allowed - do not post your topic to more than one forum, nor repost a topic to the same forum.
Who Can Read The Forum? Anyone can read posts in these discussion boards.
Who Can Post New Topics? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post new topics.
Who Can Post Replies? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post replies.
Can Photos be posted? Anyone can post photos in their new topics or replies.
Who can change or delete posts? Any CoffeeGeek member can edit their own posts. Only moderators can delete posts.
Probationary Period: If you are a new signup for CoffeeGeek, you cannot promote, endorse, criticise or otherwise post an unsolicited endorsement for any company, product or service in your first five postings.
Home Espresso Machines
Watch videos with Gail & Kat, Rocket, Jura Capresso, Saeco, Rancilio, Quick Mill, Nespresso
www.seattlecoffeegear.com
Home | Opinions | Consumer Reviews | Guides & How Tos | CoffeeGeek Reviews | Resources | Forums | Contact Us
CoffeeGeek.com, CoffeeGeek, and Coffee Geek, along with all associated content & images are copyright ©2000-2014 by Mark Prince, all rights reserved, unless otherwise indicated. Content, code, and images may not be reused without permission. Usage of this website signifies agreement with our Terms and Conditions. (0.407673120499)
Privacy Policy | Copyright Info | Terms and Conditions | CoffeeGeek Advertisers | RSS | Find us on Google+