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calblacksmith
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calblacksmith
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Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Fri Jan 17, 2014, 4:35am
Subject: Re: Breville Oracle - Anyone know anything?
 

brokencup Said:

.  Baratza is a US design built in Taiwan.  They are clearly moving up the quality ladder as represented in the new Forte models.  Really no different than what Breville is doing when they moved up to the double boiler models.

Posted August 3, 2004 link

I was answering this point, not making a new one of my own and in specific, I was thinking of the Vario, Precicso et all, my mistake for not noting more clearly what I intended to say.

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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z0mbie
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z0mbie
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Posted Sat Jan 18, 2014, 4:30pm
Subject: Re: Breville Oracle - Anyone know anything?
 

thanks for clarifying
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barjohn
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barjohn
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Location: San Clemente, CA
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Breville Oracle
Grinder: Breville Oracle
Posted Sun Jan 19, 2014, 9:59pm
Subject: Re: Breville Oracle - Anyone know anything?
 

I have a question for other owners (I know there aren't too many yet).  The 1 cup and 2 cup buttons can be set up to operate on a timer or on volume.  Which method would be preferred and why?  I initially purchased two type of Cafe Vivace blends (Vita and Dolce) and was obtaining 2 oz pours in 27 sec with the Dolce blend.  The company sent me 2 bags of Intelligentsia Black Cat beans.  I notice that these beans are slightly lighter in color and far less oily; however, at the same setting of grind (42) which is nearly the coarsest grind) I get very short pulls that are very sour in the same 27 seconds (less than an ounce).  I have tried going to 45, the coarsest setting and can obtain a little over an ounce but it still doesn't seem right.  I can change the amount and the tamp pressure but the settings values don't correspond to anything I can relate too so I don't know how many grams a particular setting provides or the amount of tamp pressure.  If anyone knows the answer it would be most helpful.  I will call the CS tomorrow as they have dedicated Oracle CS's on staff.

The steam boiler temperature can be changed from the default value of 135C but I'm not sure what benefit I get if I increase it.  That would be helpful to know.  There are many adjustments in the advanced settings section that don't contain adequate explanations for when they would be used or how they would be used.

 
John

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barjohn
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barjohn
Joined: 1 May 2004
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Location: San Clemente, CA
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Breville Oracle
Grinder: Breville Oracle
Posted Mon Jan 20, 2014, 5:18pm
Subject: Re: Breville Oracle - Anyone know anything?
 

I spoke with Breville CS today and they showed me how to make an adjustment to the grinder that seemed to help resolve the issue I was having with my pulls.  There is a mechanical adjustment that can be made that is not covered by the manual.  They are going to work with me next week when I get back home on the frothing.  I am getting micro foam but not the thicker velvety foam needed for Capps.

 
John

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calblacksmith
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calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
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Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Tue Jan 21, 2014, 7:45am
Subject: Re: Breville Oracle - Anyone know anything?
 

John, MY personal preference is by volume.
With volume, you are getting the same shots, regardless of the time it takes to pull them, in this way, for me it is easier to judge the correct state of the grind. If the shot runs long, that does not mandate that the shots are bad, taste them but it is a clear clue that the grind may be too tight, the opposite is true of course.

It is also true that with time, the  shot will be more or less coffee but it is much easier for me to monitor the time VS the volume in the shot.

The exact tamp pressure is not really all that important as long as it is "enough" and it is consistent. The reason for the tamp is to remove any voids in the puck so that it presents a constant resistance to water flow with no channeling. It takes a large change in tamp pressure to make much of a difference in the pull, adjusting the grind is the main way to adjust for your shot.

Adjusting the temp of the steam boiler (HX or DB) is to provide more pressure for steaming. With A HX you will also need to adjust your cooling shots while on a DB the warming shot will not be affected unless the Group Head is warmed by water from the steam boiler, in which case, the Group Head will be slightly warmer or cooler depending on which way the steam boiler is adjusted, providing they are connected.

In short, if you are happy with the steaming you have, why "fix" something that is not broken?

It is good to hear that they are working with you, may you only pull God shots in the future :D

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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boar_d_laze
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Joined: 21 Nov 2006
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Espresso: La Cimbali M21 DT/1 Junior...
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Posted Tue Jan 21, 2014, 8:38am
Subject: Re: Breville Oracle - Anyone know anything?
 

calblacksmith Said:

John, MY personal preference is by volume.
With volume, you are getting the same shots, regardless of the time it takes to pull them, in this way, for me it is easier to judge the correct state of the grind. If the shot runs long, that does not mandate that the shots are bad, taste them but it is a clear clue that the grind may be too tight, the opposite is true of course.

It is also true that with time, the  shot will be more or less coffee but it is much easier for me to monitor the time VS the volume in the shot.

The exact tamp pressure is not really all that important as long as it is "enough" and it is consistent. The reason for the tamp is to remove any voids in the puck so that it presents a constant resistance to water flow with no channeling. It takes a large change in tamp pressure to make much of a difference in the pull, adjusting the grind is the main way to adjust for your shot.

Adjusting the temp of the steam boiler (HX or DB) is to provide more pressure for steaming. With A HX you will also need to adjust your cooling shots while on a DB the warming shot will not be affected unless the Group Head is warmed by water from the steam boiler, in which case, the Group Head will be slightly warmer or cooler depending on which way the steam boiler is adjusted, providing they are connected.

In short, if you are happy with the steaming you have, why "fix" something that is not broken?

It is good to hear that they are working with you, may you only pull God shots in the future :D

Posted January 21, 2014 link

+1.

The "volumetric" method of defining a shot with a measured amount of water in (not volume of espresso out) is the method adopted by many of the most important cafes and theorists -- including Kaminsky, Perger and Wendelboe -- and the current trend.

It's not the only right way to define a shot, but it's certainly one of them.  If your baskets are appropriately prepared, cutting it at a given time is okay but not as directly connected to the "in the cup" considerations of yield and dissolves solutes as water in.  

Another valuable metric is what I call the "degree of extraction."  You determine whether and to what extent the shot is over, under or perfectly extracted by watching the "blonding" of the stream.  

What you want to watch out for is the beginner's shortcut of volume out, because bean type and freshness can and will skew the results wildly.  Shot weight, on the other hand, is a valuable diagnostic.  Weigh your doses, weigh your output.  Divide the first by the second for "brew ratio."          

It takes time and practice to not only get all of this measurement stuff right, working together and making sense, but also associating it with input from nose, tongue and palate.  Never forget that taste is the ultimate arbiter.  

Nothing to add to the rest of Wayne's post other than saying it was so right and good I couldn't bring myself to cut it.      

BDL
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calblacksmith
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calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 7,774
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Tue Jan 21, 2014, 9:23am
Subject: Re: Breville Oracle - Anyone know anything?
 

Rich,

To just comment on weighing. I find that the volume of water absorbed in the puck is nearly always the same as the dose of grounds.
To wit, if I use 18 G of coffee for a double shot, my normal dose, and I zero the scale to include the PF, basket and coffee, the water absorbed into the puck will be 18g.

Perhaps it is just a fluke at 18g for the coffee I use (red bird) but I found it interesting anyway and the ratio is the reason I bought the scale I did, it fits under the cup nicely and it has a built in timer as well as tare functions, thus making it easy to watch both the time and the weight of the shot.

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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barjohn
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barjohn
Joined: 1 May 2004
Posts: 155
Location: San Clemente, CA
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Breville Oracle
Grinder: Breville Oracle
Posted Tue Jan 21, 2014, 9:27am
Subject: Re: Breville Oracle - Anyone know anything?
 

What you both are saying about using volume makes sense; however, you failed to inform me what volume a double or single should be.  If it is 2 oz and 1 oz respectively, is that the correct amount of water in since the grinds will absorb a fair amount of water, that would make quite a bit less than 2 oz or 1 oz shots.  In their instruction book they say to measure the volume out through a filled and tamped PF.  The other challenge is that as the shot pours, the crema can appear to have as much volume as the liquid but then as the crema breaks down it adds to the volume of liquid.

It would seem that with the volume method you might always get less than a double or single.

Another question, the instruction manual says not to steam milk above 155 f, yet many videos from the various vendors say to steam to 160 f.  Are they wrong?  What should it be?

Thanks for the help.

 
John

Veritas en Trashitas
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calblacksmith
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calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 7,774
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Tue Jan 21, 2014, 9:39am
Subject: Re: Breville Oracle - Anyone know anything?
 

John,

Sorry about that, yes a shot is 1 FL oz of liquid (I forget the metric values) so two shots is 2 FL oz.

Most count the level of the Crema when using a shot glass or small measuring cup, so the initial volume is less than 1 oz of liquid and yes as the shot settles, the ratio changes but it should be pretty constant in volume, perhaps slightly less after it settles. This is another reason that weighing the output is more accurate than by volume. EDIT, the level of crema will also change depending on the PF you are using, a Naked PF will give more crema while a single or double spout will tend to break the crema up and there will be less in the cup. END edit.


A single FL oz of water is 1 oz in weight. The old saying of "a pint is a pound the world around" (we are not talking about the many different systems of measurement, please!) so a pint is 16 oz, a pound is 16 oz or a oz is an oz :D This is true  for milk, eggs, butter and water so it is a handy thing to remember when baking but that is beside the point.


The temp for steaming is a personal thing pretty much, what you are watching out for is that if you take the milk too hot, you will burn the milk. I stop steaming at 150 F but this is truly a case of YMMV!

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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SJM
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Posted Tue Jan 21, 2014, 10:15am
Subject: Re: Breville Oracle - Anyone know anything?
 

Not to pick too many nits, but....a "shot" in the United States, as measured in a shot glass, is 1.5 oz not 1 oz.
That may have no relevance here, but....at the bar it would matter.

Susan

calblacksmith Said:

John,

Sorry about that, yes a shot is 1 FL oz of liquid (I forget the metric values) so two shots is 2 FL oz.

Most count the level of the Crema when using a shot glass or small measuring cup, so the initial volume is less than 1 oz of liquid and yes as the shot settles, the ratio changes but it should be pretty constant in volume, perhaps slightly less after it settles. This is another reason that weighing the output is more accurate than by volume. EDIT, the level of crema will also change depending on the PF you are using, a Naked PF will give more crema while a single or double spout will tend to break the crema up and there will be less in the cup. END edit.


A single FL oz of water is 1 oz in weight. The old saying of "a pint is a pound the world around" (we are not talking about the many different systems of measurement, please!) so a pint is 16 oz, a pound is 16 oz or a oz is an oz :D This is true  for milk, eggs, butter and water so it is a handy thing to remember when baking but that is beside the point.


The temp for steaming is a personal thing pretty much, what you are watching out for is that if you take the milk too hot, you will burn the milk. I stop steaming at 150 F but this is truly a case of YMMV!

Posted January 21, 2014 link

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