Our Valued Sponsor
OpinionsConsumer ReviewsGuides and How TosCoffeeGeek ReviewsResourcesForums
Espresso: Espresso Machines
The DB Difference
Coffee Kids
Help folks who help folks in coffee producing nations.
coffeekids.org
 
Not Logged in: Log In to Postlog in
New Topics updated topics   New Posts new posts   Unanswered Posts new unanswered  
Search Discussion Board search   Discussion Board FAQ faq   Signup sign up  
Discussions > Espresso > Machines > The DB...  
view previous topic | view next topic | view all topics
showing page 1 of 3 last page next page
Author Messages
tonini
Senior Member


Joined: 22 Jan 2013
Posts: 33
Location: GTA, Ontario, Canada
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Silvia V3
Grinder: HG One
Posted Mon Dec 30, 2013, 4:26pm
Subject: The DB Difference
 

Hello Everyone,

I am finally at the point of upgrading my machine but I have some questions. I have decided I do not think at this time lever is the way to go. I am thinking of going to a DB, seems to be a great option. My question to you all is will it make a huge difference in espresso quality vs my Silvia? I know the silvia is bla and really horrible temperature stability. I rarely make a latte, so shot quality is super important to me. I currently have a HG One, buy fresh roasted coffee or roast myself. At this point, it's about the machine to me. Please note my silvia has no pid or any mods. If I go to a DB I am wondering about an R58 or Electra Semiautomatica. But really I am open minded.
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
jwoodyu
Senior Member
jwoodyu
Joined: 31 Dec 2010
Posts: 857
Location: Michigan
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Allex Duetto II
Grinder: Mazzer Major
Posted Mon Dec 30, 2013, 4:45pm
Subject: Re: The DB Difference
 

The short and unsatisfying answer is yes a quality DB will make decidedly better spro all other things being equal, but so we will a quality HX and you will have a little learning to do with both. Beyond that every machine is a compromise in one way or another and you will have to decide which is for you. Speaking from my experience with a PID DB machine I am confident that I can produce shots at accurate temps every single time. HX guys like Wayne and Jason will tell you the same and I believe them. If you switch beans a lot like single dose then maybe an HX is better for you. If you buy 5 lbs and burn through it then switch then maybe the DB. I tend to do the later for the most part and don't find that when I am in the mood to be all crafty that the DB is no problem to adjust.

 
Yes i have a reason for leaving SCG off my list, yes it is my opinion, yes it is subjective as opinions are by definition, no don't start a flame war because you disagree.
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
boar_d_laze
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1,342
Location: Monrovia, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: La Cimbali M21 DT/1 Junior...
Grinder: Ceado E92; "Bunnzilla"
Vac Pot: Royal Coffee Maker
Drip: Chemex + Kone; Espro Press
Roaster: USRC Sample Roaster
Posted Mon Dec 30, 2013, 6:09pm
Subject: Re: The DB Difference
 

You have a grinder good enough to pair with even the best espresso machines.  At least that's not in issue anymore.  

Helping you choose the right machine is complicated by the fact that you aren't giving us enough information to narrow the field meaningfully; and more complicated by the fact that you don't seem to know much about espresso machines... yet.

The Rocket R58 is a top of the prosumer range DB.  The Elektra Semiautomatica is not a DB, but an HX -- a beautiful HX to be sure.  Because the two machines are different types, and because they're separated by $700, they don't belong on the same list.  

Talk about what you expect from your espresso machine in terms of "dialing in" (and if you don't know what dialing in is, say that); whether or not you're super-critical about temping (coming from a Silvia, probably not); why you think you want a DB (as opposed to an HX or lever); your price range; whether you you'll ever be able to plumb-in; and anything else which strikes your fancy.  

BDL
back to top
 View Profile Visit website Link to this post
ilcaffedio
Senior Member


Joined: 31 Jan 2006
Posts: 463
Location: Atlanta, GA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Astra G.A.
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Vac Pot: Yama
Drip: Chemex
Roaster: Behmor 1600
Posted Mon Dec 30, 2013, 6:28pm
Subject: Re: The DB Difference
 

I think the next logical step for you would be to PID your Silvia.  If you just want to try something different, that's completely understandable.  By all means try HX, DB, lever (lever is orthogonal to HX|DB).  If you do opt for a new machine, I highly recommend a plumbed-in model, if you can.  It really does make a world of difference in terms of convenience.
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
tonini
Senior Member


Joined: 22 Jan 2013
Posts: 33
Location: GTA, Ontario, Canada
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Silvia V3
Grinder: HG One
Posted Mon Dec 30, 2013, 6:45pm
Subject: Re: The DB Difference
 

Boar has hit the nail on the head. I lack info and knowledge on espresso machines. To better explain, I am looking for a non plumbed machine. My reasoning is stupid I guess but I have not moved out yet and feel this may be a pain to do. I don't know of any other real benefits, plus the water in our area is very hard.

I picked the semiautomatica because my local espresso equipment retailer has told me it can make a great shot. They are not pushing one machine on me but say its a great machine.

I don't have proper reasoning on a DB vs HX. From what I have been under the impression of, the DB can handle doing things such as steaming while pulling a shot. It also has great temperature stability, where as my understanding of the HX it is great for pulling shots but steaming at the same time is not a great idea. From the impressions I have gotten, the DB is better for temperature stability but I may be incredibly wrong.

I have a dream, I may never have a shot at it but I have a dream. I want to do all I can to learn about Espresso and one day have a cafe. I realize many have this dream and many fail but I will try and until I fail over and over to the point I cannot fail anymore, I shall keep the dream alive. I say this because that is why a machine like the R58 interests me, I realize its a great machine. Yes, many other great machines that can be used very often but still.

For my current personal use, I make 3 shots on average per day. 2 shots early in the morning and 1 in the evening. I have thought to go against the silvia pid as I am unsure I can install this on my own. So I thought if I went that basic, I would sell the Silvia and get a CC1.
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
ilcaffedio
Senior Member


Joined: 31 Jan 2006
Posts: 463
Location: Atlanta, GA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Astra G.A.
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Vac Pot: Yama
Drip: Chemex
Roaster: Behmor 1600
Posted Mon Dec 30, 2013, 10:45pm
Subject: Re: The DB Difference
 

tonini Said:

I don't have proper reasoning on a DB vs HX. From what I have been under the impression of, the DB can handle doing things such as steaming while pulling a shot. It also has great temperature stability, where as my understanding of the HX it is great for pulling shots but steaming at the same time is not a great idea. From the impressions I have gotten, the DB is better for temperature stability but I may be incredibly wrong.

Posted December 30, 2013 link

With a good HX, you can absolutely steam and pull a shot at the same time.  You will have to learn to temp-surf an HX (some DBs to a lesser extent).  Some HX machines are very temperature stable (like Astra), but control of the brew temperature is indirect (by way of flushing to cool, and setting the steam boiler pressure stat).  With a well engineered DB, you have more direct control over brew temperature (though there may be some flushing to bring up to temp).

tonini Said:

I have a dream, I may never have a shot at it but I have a dream. I want to do all I can to learn about Espresso and one day have a cafe. I realize many have this dream and many fail but I will try and until I fail over and over to the point I cannot fail anymore, I shall keep the dream alive. I say this because that is why a machine like the R58 interests me, I realize its a great machine. Yes, many other great machines that can be used very often but still.

Posted December 30, 2013 link

Have you looked at 'La Spaziale Dream T'? :-)

tonini Said:

For my current personal use, I make 3 shots on average per day. 2 shots early in the morning and 1 in the evening. I have thought to go against the silvia pid as I am unsure I can install this on my own. So I thought if I went that basic, I would sell the Silvia and get a CC1.

Posted December 30, 2013 link

If you mostly pull shots, some DBs can be used with the steam boiler turned off.
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
calblacksmith
Moderator
calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 7,881
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Tue Dec 31, 2013, 2:17am
Subject: Re: The DB Difference
 

Slight correction to above, you do not temp surf a HX. You clear the over temp water and the temp is then stable, no guess work, no timing lights, no wating for the heater cycle ect, that is temp surfing, just doing a cooling flush is not temp surfing.

Either a DB or HX will do anything you want to do. I do not know where you got the idea that you were not able or it was a bad idea to steam and pull shots on a HX, I do it every morning and most afternoons, no issues at all. Then there would not be any on a DB either. A DB needs a WARMING flush (most anyway) and ALL machines need to be given a CLEANING FLUSH between shots so no matter what you do, you are flushing water.

Like BDL said, you are all over the place with machines. You do not even understand the differences between the major divisions of machines.

Be specific, what is it that you expect an upgrade machine to do? What type of drinks, how often, in short, pretty much the whole sticky post at the top of this forum but rather than buying a starter setup, you are moving on to the next and possibly last step.

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
back to top
 View Profile Visit website Link to this post
ilcaffedio
Senior Member


Joined: 31 Jan 2006
Posts: 463
Location: Atlanta, GA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Astra G.A.
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Vac Pot: Yama
Drip: Chemex
Roaster: Behmor 1600
Posted Tue Dec 31, 2013, 7:03am
Subject: Re: The DB Difference
 

calblacksmith Said:

Slight correction to above, you do not temp surf a HX. You clear the over temp water and the temp is then stable, no guess work, no timing lights, no wating for the heater cycle ect, that is temp surfing, just doing a cooling flush is not temp surfing.

Posted December 31, 2013 link

NP, I have a HX, and I've always called that temp surfing (albeit quite different technique than temp surfing a SBDU, or DB, but 'temp surfing' nonetheless).  Potato, potato, I guess.
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
Coffeenoobie
Senior Member
Coffeenoobie
Joined: 11 Dec 2011
Posts: 3,040
Location: PNW
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: N S Oscar
Grinder: K30 & Vario W
Posted Tue Dec 31, 2013, 8:14am
Subject: Re: The DB Difference
 

To call it temp surfing scares noobies and is not correct. Temp surfing - is a lot more than one step and learning your machine to try to make up for the fact it is not very stable temp wise.  My HX machine is stable and fairly large boiler, machines you temp surf on have smaller boilers and are not stable and that is why you are surfing in the first place.  I don't care if my heater light is on or off and I am not timing the heater light to start the pull or anything of the sort.  

HX- You are flushing a tiny bit of water out before a pull - one step done the same way every time.  My machine it is about an oz if I take longer than 2 mins between shots.  If you do it back to back, like you have a second basket/portafilter set up ready to go or are a lot faster than me, the cleaning flush to get the grinds off the screen is enough.  I clear one oz of water then lock and load, then I clear about the same amount of water after the pull for the grinds.  It takes almost no time to learn how much water to drain because you can see the steam stop and the water settle down to a stream and it is very easy to repeat even half asleep.

 
Coffeenoobie

Buying advice: GRINDER GRINDER GRINDER. Don't cheap out on the grinder.

My coffee treasure map...
Click Here (maps.google.com)

Oscar trick out: http://s156.photobucket.com/user/GandBteam/story/14231
back to top
 View Profile Visit website Link to this post
jonr
Senior Member


Joined: 25 Jun 2013
Posts: 300
Location: Americas
Expertise: I like coffee
Posted Tue Dec 31, 2013, 8:52am
Subject: Re: The DB Difference
 

A not so often considered aspect of temperature accuracy/repeat-ability is how much of the water path is influenced by exposure to non-fixed ambient temperatures.   A design with a group directly attached to a boiler does well.  Add a thermostatically controlled group heater and it does even better.   Run exposed tubing from the boiler to the group and it does worse, even if you attempt to compensate by flushing.

On the other hand, if your kitchen is always the same temperature and you let things stabilize long enough, you can adjust out these influences.
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
showing page 1 of 3 last page next page
view previous topic | view next topic | view all topics
Discussions > Espresso > Machines > The DB...  
New Topics updated topics   New Posts new posts   Unanswered Posts new unanswered     Search Discussion Board search   Discussion Board FAQ faq   Signup sign up  
Not Logged in: Log In to Postlog in
Discussions Quick Jump:
Symbols: New Posts= New Posts since your last visit      No New Posts= No New Posts since last visit     Go to most recent post= Newest post
Forum Rules:
No profanity, illegal acts or personal attacks will be tolerated in these discussion boards.
No commercial posting of any nature will be tolerated; only private sales by private individuals, in the "Buy and Sell" forum.
No SEO style postings will be tolerated. SEO related posts will result in immediate ban from CoffeeGeek.
No cross posting allowed - do not post your topic to more than one forum, nor repost a topic to the same forum.
Who Can Read The Forum? Anyone can read posts in these discussion boards.
Who Can Post New Topics? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post new topics.
Who Can Post Replies? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post replies.
Can Photos be posted? Anyone can post photos in their new topics or replies.
Who can change or delete posts? Any CoffeeGeek member can edit their own posts. Only moderators can delete posts.
Probationary Period: If you are a new signup for CoffeeGeek, you cannot promote, endorse, criticise or otherwise post an unsolicited endorsement for any company, product or service in your first five postings.
Support Coffee Kids
Coffee Kids is a non profit charity working with farming communities around the world. Donate today!
www.coffeekids.org
Home | Opinions | Consumer Reviews | Guides & How Tos | CoffeeGeek Reviews | Resources | Forums | Contact Us
CoffeeGeek.com, CoffeeGeek, and Coffee Geek, along with all associated content & images are copyright ©2000-2014 by Mark Prince, all rights reserved, unless otherwise indicated. Content, code, and images may not be reused without permission. Usage of this website signifies agreement with our Terms and Conditions. (0.398683786392)
Privacy Policy | Copyright Info | Terms and Conditions | CoffeeGeek Advertisers | RSS | Find us on Google+