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Discussions > Espresso > Machines > V2B noise  
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DavecUK
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Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Posts: 1,433
Location: UK
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Fri Nov 8, 2013, 8:49pm
Subject: Re: V2B noise
 

DeanOK Said:

I think I understand that you are saying that air is trapping in the top of the brew boiler. Since air is compressible, this allows the pump to run at a lower pressure on start up until it compresses the air in the tank and allow the pressure to build to full pressure. Is that correct?

Posted November 8, 2013 link

Yes there will be air in the top of the boiler and perhaps the odd bubble here and there in the brew path (maybe a little in the pump). Yes the air is compressible, but as for the rest, it's not really how its working, it's more to do with the flow dynamics and pressures during that second the pump starts up and the formation of internal voids/bubbles in the pump which result in cavitation effects (but nothing to do with air in the pump).. it is to do with trapped air though and hence why removal solves the problem. Even when you fill the boiler it still might do it occasionally for a while, but it will get less.

If there is any way of air leaking into the brew path, e.g. if the group seals wear over the years, the float jams and the tank sucks dry, or you change from tanked to plumbed without it being plumbed, or you move to plumbed and there is some air in the pipe, or even if the expansion valve is letting by due to wear and air is entering when the machine cools.. All these things can introduce air into the brew path. Once it's there is can cause this cavitation sound, because of air going through the pump, or because of air in the brew boiler affecting the pump dynamics. If it was a temporary leak, eventually the air will get absorbed throughout the heating cooling and pressure cycles (it may take months) and the sound becomes more infrequent and eventually goes.

In all many coffee machines I have tested, I have had it from time to time, it usually goes away. My machine now is almost back to as it was, I have had the noise once today after the machine warmed up this morning, but this could just be a small amount of air that was in the pump that has come through, or has yet to come through, because i really did suck up loads of air to ensure I had the noise every time I pulled a shot, in line with my/my families normal drinking schedule for the day (about 15 coffees). Before writing this I went and pulled a double shot, the machine had sat unused for about 5 hours and it was fine, no unusual noise. The disclaimers are there, because I am not your reseller and I have not consulted with QM. My advice is worth what you paid for it, but so far, I am the only one to have, induced the problem, reproduced the noise in my machine (on regular basis) and given you details of my fix.



P.S. Years ago, I was involved in the introduction/testing of the Izzo Alex, the first E61 rotary pump tanked prosumer machine I think there was., there was quite a bit of discussion and a great deal of concern from Izzo that these pumps were never designed to run from a tank, but from a positive pressure source, because they were pumping into a steam boiler and small HX unit. They worried there might be problems with the tubes and lack of pressure from the tank side and that it might affect the life of the pump or occasionally give strange noises. Izzo were reluctant to initially produce the Alex, luckily these fears proved groundless and the pump worked fine. Now all manufacturers have moved on to the same tanked rotary pumps feeding a much larger separate brew and steam boiler. it's not perfect, but it works. Concerns over the life of the pumps are groundless, usually the seals go long before the vanes/bearings. In commercial use, the pumps might last 3-7 years, in domestic use they might only last 7, perhaps up to 10. in the domestic setting it's more a time expire thing for the seals, because they will usually do less shots in 10 years than a busy cafe will do in 1. All the prosumer machines we use are a compromise in one way or another, but the top end prosumer units, in general, work better than many of their commercial counterparts in terms of the coffee they produce for us in the domestic environment.
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pShoe
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Joined: 13 Nov 2012
Posts: 57
Location: Fort Lauderdale
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Sat Nov 9, 2013, 12:48am
Subject: Re: V2B noise
 

DavecUK Said:

Funnily enough while making a latte for my wife I was steaming milk and pulling the shot and thinking....I never used to do this on other machines, in case the steam boiler autofill came on and spoiled the shot. Isn't it great that the Verona prevents the steam boiler from auto filling, whilst a shot is being pulled, then I thought of the brass boiler and build quality, the combined Vac breaker and safety valve and all the other things. Looked at my Duetto on the other counter (unused for months) and thought....I really got to put that in a box, and store it next to my R58 dual boiler in the workshop!.

Posted November 7, 2013 link

So much greatness packed in the V2B. Great work on the diagnostic, solution, and instructions. Are there any steps owners, distributors, or QM can do to prevent the air problem from occurring in the first place?  

Since we have a thread about noise, can I bring up another one??? I feel bad because we just got the bottom of one.

I've noted the noise before. Sometimes while pulling a shot I hear a quick, sharp but noticeable chirp noise. It is not at the beginning of the shot/lifting the lever, but very close afterwards. It's only happened maybe 4-5 times. It has only happened when the pour is super slow shot, or if the machine gets choked. Interesting enough, it has not happen when back flushing. I'm not really concerned about it since it does not occur while pulling a proper shot. It is really just my curiosity and wanting to know what might be happening in the machine that would cause that noise.

Any ideas or has anyone else heard it?

FYI for anyone that has to do this fix, IIRC US machines are slightly different from the Verona for disassembly. For this fix I don't think there is a difference, but for full disassembly there is. The lights also make is some what annoying. There is not much slack to the light's wire.  CCS might not like the idea of owners tinkering in the machine, but I think he'll like the alternative [read: paying to have a bunch of machines shipped back for a relative easy fix] even less. I was lucky enough that, for now, my machine worked the sound out itself. I really don't think it would have ever made the sound if I didn't play around with the lever positions. It makes since though. I was lifting the lever to points were the pump didn't activate but water came out. I'm sure I incorporated air at some point and bam, a cavitation sound.
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germantownrob
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germantownrob
Joined: 2 Dec 2007
Posts: 2,153
Location: Philadelphia
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Duetto 3, A Dead Oscar
Grinder: Vario-W, Preciso w/Esatto,...
Drip: Brazen
Roaster: Diedrich IR-1, HT B
Posted Sat Nov 9, 2013, 5:48am
Subject: Re: V2B noise
 

I can't speak for CCS and what they want you to do with your machine but I can speak for the two espresso machines I have bought from them over the years. I am confident in my tinkering skills and have had problems on both my machines while under warenty, each time CCS sent me the parts needed to do the repairs myself. Never did they scare me with the idea that my warenty would be void if I touched my machine.

The last problem I had was my steam boiler leaking at the bottom of a Duetto. Talking to Chris' they said it was up to me whether I wanted to fix it or get it back to them to fix. Shipping is not only a cost factor but a risk, sending a 60lb machine through Oops is asking for it to be tossed around like a ball in a gorilla cage, my monkey hands are far less likely to do much damage that CCS couldn't easily fix if I botch something up.

Tech at Chris' is great, they have walked me through many problem before with patients and skill. Call them or email them if you are nervous but Dave gave you the fix. I wouldn't hold my breath for a solution that Dave already gave to come from QM or CCS, Dave spent many hours testing his theory and solution to the problem, not sure CCS or QM will have the same amount of time to spend.

Dave, great job as always!
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DavecUK
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Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Posts: 1,433
Location: UK
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Sat Nov 9, 2013, 7:27am
Subject: Re: V2B noise
 

pShoe Said:

Since we have a thread about noise, can I bring up another one??? I feel bad because we just got the bottom of one.

I've noted the noise before. Sometimes while pulling a shot I hear a quick, sharp but noticeable chirp noise. It is not at the beginning of the shot/lifting the lever, but very close afterwards. It's only happened maybe 4-5 times. It has only happened when the pour is super slow shot, or if the machine gets choked. Interesting enough, it has not happen when back flushing. I'm not really concerned about it since it does not occur while pulling a proper shot. It is really just my curiosity and wanting to know what might be happening in the machine that would cause that noise.

Posted November 9, 2013 link

The groups of all machines can sometimes make noises, there may be various reasons, yours is due to the pre-infusion valve opening (this happens at around  3 or 4 bar and allows a small chamber to fill, giving a lower pressure period of pre-infusion to the puck. This is the built in pre-infusion talked about on any E61. The valve stem is triangular (or square) to allow water to flow past and sometimes during certain shot conditions, as this opens the brass pin can rub against the brass group under p[pressure as it opens.

http://coffeetimex.wikidot.com/e61-group-servicing

Usually people start to notice these noises after they have backflushed with cleaner and/or run descaler through the group. The lack of any lubrication and coffee oils can make these noises more pronounced. Some groups can make a noise, some don't most will at some time or other. Again this is something that could well disappear over time as the coffee oils build up. It's one of the reasons I warn against backflushing with cleaner too often.  The main benefit of backflushing with cleaner is to remove coffee residues from the group vent system/pre-infusion chamber. I do of course backflush daily with just water. see article below:

Click Here (coffeetime.wikidot.com)

pShoe Said:

So much greatness packed in the V2B. Great work on the diagnostic, solution, and instructions. Are there any steps owners, distributors, or QM can do to prevent the air problem from occurring in the first place?  

FYI for anyone that has to do this fix, IIRC US machines are slightly different from the Verona for disassembly. For this fix I don't think there is a difference, but for full disassembly there is. The lights also make is some what annoying. There is not much slack to the light's wire.  CCS might not like the idea of owners tinkering in the machine, but I think he'll like the alternative [read: paying to have a bunch of machines shipped back for a relative easy fix] even less. I was lucky enough that, for now, my machine worked the sound out itself. I really don't think it would have ever made the sound if I didn't play around with the lever positions. It makes since though. I was lifting the lever to points were the pump didn't activate but water came out. I'm sure I incorporated air at some point and bam, a cavitation sound.

Posted November 9, 2013 link


Yes lever manoeuvers outside the design specification of the E61 are likely to make the noise start up, bleeding water under some pressure from a hot boiler without the pump running is ill advised on any twin boiler machine running off the internal tank, there is no middle "pre-infusion" position of an E61, it wasn't designed that way and I keep seeing threads about it. I don't usually comment any more. So probably you introduced air in that way.

There are a couple of things QM could try to reduce the chance of the noise occurring and they might work, or they might not. However, please remember this is to fix a noise that's not really causing a problem, will usually sort itself out over time and should not usually recur unless you drain the system down. For all I know all the US machines might have been shipped with empty/near empty boilers. Assuming I am  right about the cause...which I might not be? I'm not going to detail the things they could try here, because to put them in a forum would be inappropriate. There is nothing the home user can do to retrofit the changes and unless the manufacturer asks me they will not be inclined to listen very seriously.  I suspect if Chris Coffee asks them to discuss with me, then they probably would.

There is something you can do at home. I would be inclined to put a sealing cap on the mains inlet pipe underneath the machine, if you are running it tanked. I have made this advice to various manufacturers, none seem to do it. I can't remember if I asked QM to do it or not, probably I had given up trying to get manufacturers to do it by then. Me personally, I just don't like the idea of an open pipe there, even if it is fronted by a closed solenoid valve. This is something a home user could easily do, it just involves finding the right kind of sealing cap to seal it up. You will have more luck in the US, because we're all metric and your not. This may not do anything, but it makes me happy, I used an old plastic top to an essential oil bottle to do the job.
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CarloM
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Joined: 1 Apr 2013
Posts: 323
Location: Los Angeles
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Vetrano V2B
Grinder: Mazzer Mini-E Type A, SJ...
Drip: Toddy
Posted Tue Nov 12, 2013, 12:42pm
Subject: Re: V2B noise
 

Just checking back in, I have not heard back from CCS/QM since last I updated, and I was going to send in an inquiry, but before I do, has anyone heard back from CCS within the last few days regarding this issue?

I noticed that usually when warming up my pressure gauge is much lower than 8-9 bars. This morning the GRRR noise did not happen, and my gauge said I was right around 9 bars. I know the instructions say the gauge may be all over the place before you pull your first shot, or run water through the brew group, but I thought I'd post it just because it may be relevant.

Anyway, if no one has heard back, I'll send an email to CCS either later today or tomorrow, and if I don't hear anything back I'll try Dave's fix.

Speaking of, Dave: has your machine remained silent since your fix which you performed a few days ago?
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DavecUK
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Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Posts: 1,433
Location: UK
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Tue Nov 12, 2013, 8:06pm
Subject: Re: V2B noise
 

CarloM Said:

Just checking back in, I have not heard back from CCS/QM since last I updated, and I was going to send in an inquiry, but before I do, has anyone heard back from CCS within the last few days regarding this issue?

I noticed that usually when warming up my pressure gauge is much lower than 8-9 bars. This morning the GRRR noise did not happen, and my gauge said I was right around 9 bars. I know the instructions say the gauge may be all over the place before you pull your first shot, or run water through the brew group, but I thought I'd post it just because it may be relevant.

Anyway, if no one has heard back, I'll send an email to CCS either later today or tomorrow, and if I don't hear anything back I'll try Dave's fix.

Speaking of, Dave: has your machine remained silent since your fix which you performed a few days ago?

Posted November 12, 2013 link

Mostly yes, It has made a very brief noise ocassionally (usually if unused for a while) and if I follow the usage techniques you might be using, as I wanted to replicate as far as possible other peoples use of the machine.  By usage techniques I mean using the machine as most people might. Lifting the lever up smartly and flipping it down again. I never mentioned before, but that's not how I usually move the lever of any machine. I also introduced quite a lot of air and some may be sitting in the pump chamber at the top or other places? I could take the tube off to add some more water, or simply leave it. However, when I had a lot of air it was doing it all of the time.

Click Here (coffeetime.wikidot.com)

See the first point in operator problems, by rapid movements of controls, I mean snapping the lever up and down. Most people do this...I usually do not. It can give you a problem and simply isn't great for the mechanism. I move the lever up slowly onto the cam and then after a brief pause to "feel" everything's OK, I lift to the full brew position which activates the pump. It's similar to what people might call preinfusion, but only for a fraction of a second.. When I use my normal method, the machine has not made a noise (so far). I suspect this is because the top brew valve opens, it releases any pressure then a few fractions of a second later the pump activates, but by that time any shockwave/pressure variance has gone and no voids are produced in the pump chamber.

So yeah, get rid of any air space and move your lever a little more slowly and smoothly with a momentary pause at the top of the cam, just before the pump opens just like changing gear on a manual car. It should prevent the noise. Or Simply move the lever in the way I do (which should help a lot) and let any air spaces work themselves out over time. It's not really a big enough problem for me to need to do anything else, or worry about it, but I am going to make 3 small design change recommendations to QM for future QM UK models.
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ECM
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ECM
Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 476
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia Canada
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Mazzer Robour E
Vac Pot: French Press
Drip: no
Roaster: Fresh Roast+8,  i-roast and...
Posted Wed Nov 13, 2013, 6:33pm
Subject: Re: V2B noise
 

Still nothing from CCS or Quick Mill?
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JaniceAnn
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Joined: 15 May 2013
Posts: 185
Location: Virginia
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Fri Nov 15, 2013, 12:59pm
Subject: Re: V2B noise
 

I haven't heard anything about the noise issue.

I did have a problem with the double portafilter.  The handle, right where it meets the metal, started to crack.  I was really concerned that it was going to break completely.  My husband said it was probably from an internal crack that happened when the plastic handle was pushed onto the metal too hard and it had worked its way to the surface.  It wasn't visible when we got the machine and just started showing last week.

I contacted Mary at CCS and she sent me, free of any charge, one of the custom E61 portafilters they are now carrying.  It is the same as the ones that come with the UK version that Dave shows in his review of the 2B.  It is beautiful!  Very heavy and extremely well made.  It really does lock in with just a touch of the fingers.

I am very impressed with the Customer Service and how quickly I got the new portafilter.  I emailed CCS on Monday and today I got the package from UPS.  I am very pleased!

Also, I have noticed that my 2B is making the GRR noise less that it was.  Maybe the air is getting worked out as Dave said it would.
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ECM
Senior Member
ECM
Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 476
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia Canada
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Mazzer Robour E
Vac Pot: French Press
Drip: no
Roaster: Fresh Roast+8,  i-roast and...
Posted Fri Nov 15, 2013, 4:12pm
Subject: Re: V2B noise
 

That's all good to know Janice.  I'm still waiting for the next shipment of Vetranos to arrive.  In the mean time I ordered a Mazzer Rovur E which will be here on Tuesday.  To say I'm excited would be putting it mildly.

Rob
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CurtG
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Joined: 25 Oct 2011
Posts: 26
Location: San Diego
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill V2B
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Vac Pot: Hario Nouveau Syphon
Posted Fri Nov 15, 2013, 4:26pm
Subject: Re: V2B noise
 

JaniceAnn Said:

I did have a problem with the double portafilter.  The handle, right where it meets the metal, started to crack.  I was really concerned that it was going to break completely.  My husband said it was probably from an internal crack that happened when the plastic handle was pushed onto the metal too hard and it had worked its way to the surface.  It wasn't visible when we got the machine and just started showing last week.

I contacted Mary at CCS and she sent me, free of any charge, one of the custom E61 portafilters they are now carrying.  It is the same as the ones that come with the UK version that Dave shows in his review of the 2B.  It is beautiful!  Very heavy and extremely well made.  It really does lock in with just a touch of the fingers.

I am very impressed with the Customer Service and how quickly I got the new portafilter.  I emailed CCS on Monday and today I got the package from UPS.  I am very pleased!

Posted November 15, 2013 link

Jealous!  That's the only part of the machine I feel QM skimped on for the US consumers...

CCS has been great for me also.
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