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Another DB Quickmill
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Discussions > Espresso > Machines > Another DB...  
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JaniceAnn
Senior Member


Joined: 15 May 2013
Posts: 185
Location: Virginia
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Wed Oct 30, 2013, 5:40am
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

DavecUK Said:

No I don't get the sound at all, did not on either machine. I use treated RO water though and have removed all inlet tube restrictions (although it's fair to say I didn't get the sound before)...

I am trying to think what it could be.

Posted October 30, 2013 link

I sent an email to CCS and was told that this was the first they had heard of the cavitation sound.  They are supposed to be contacting Quick Mill about it but I haven't heard back yet.

I agree that it is worrying and, because of my sensitivity to noise, annoying as well.

It happens when the tank is completely full so low water is not the problem in my case.  It only goes on for 2 or 3 seconds and then goes back to the normal quiet sound.

It is strange that we all seem to be getting the sound and Dave never has.  I assume that the pump and motor are the same in the UK and US versions.

What causes cavitation anyway?  I have read some stuff on the internet but it is so technical that I don't completely understand it.
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Zevi
Senior Member


Joined: 28 Mar 2013
Posts: 124
Location: Ann Arbor
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Posted Wed Oct 30, 2013, 6:46am
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

JaniceAnn Said:

It happens when the tank is completely full so low water is not the problem in my case.  It only goes on for 2 or 3 seconds and then goes back to the normal quiet sound.

It is strange that we all seem to be getting the sound and Dave never has.  I assume that the pump and motor are the same in the UK and US versions.

What causes cavitation anyway?  I have read some stuff on the internet but it is so technical that I don't completely understand it.

Posted October 30, 2013 link

Cavitation occurs when a pump tried to "suck" water at a rate that is higher than the water can supply (either because of flow restriction or not enough water). It's like slurping. Rotary pumps are especially susceptible to cavitation, and that's why usually these pumps are for plumbed-in machines and the tank machines have vibe pumps.

I'm not sure that we all get this same sound. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that (was it Carlo?) someone said that they had to pull the lever to make the sound stop; I don't think it was a 2-3 sec sound.
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JaniceAnn
Senior Member


Joined: 15 May 2013
Posts: 185
Location: Virginia
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Wed Oct 30, 2013, 7:03am
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

Zevi Said:

Cavitation occurs when a pump tried to "suck" water at a rate that is higher than the water can supply (either because of flow restriction or not enough water). It's like slurping. Rotary pumps are especially susceptible to cavitation, and that's why usually these pumps are for plumbed-in machines and the tank machines have vibe pumps.

I'm not sure that we all get this same sound. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that (was it Carlo?) someone said that they had to pull the lever to make the sound stop; I don't think it was a 2-3 sec sound.

Posted October 30, 2013 link

I get the sound when I pull the lever fully up.  It lasts for a couple of seconds then goes back to the regular sound.  It happens when I start to pull the lever up from the first position which I think is for the pre-infusion?

The technician at CCS said it sounds like it might be air in the lines.  If so, I don't know how to clear it.  He said that there is something that happens call siphon backflow where the water siphons out of the lines back into the reservoir and that allows air to get into the lines.  I think I am correct in repeating the information.
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DeanOK
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DeanOK
Joined: 24 Sep 2012
Posts: 720
Location: OK
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: QM Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Vario W
Posted Wed Oct 30, 2013, 7:29am
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

JaniceAnn Said:

He said that there is something that happens call siphon backflow where the water siphons out of the lines back into the reservoir and that allows air to get into the lines.

Posted October 30, 2013 link

Sounds like an issue that a little small check valve would fix.
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Zevi
Senior Member


Joined: 28 Mar 2013
Posts: 124
Location: Ann Arbor
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Posted Wed Oct 30, 2013, 8:04am
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

OK, here's what I think may be happening (emphasis on "may"...):
For some reason (brew temp setting, incorrect PID offset, etc.), the water in the brew tank get hot enough to create steam, at least enough to create "push back" pressure in the feeding tube. Especially if the machine if left on for a long time and accumulates heat. That steam gets to the pump, but it cools down to create air bubbles. When the pump comes on - it cavitates until it recovers from these bubbles. If the machine is plumed in - the water pressure prevents this backflow. Also, having a full tank may reduce some of these occurrences.

DeanOK: That is correct - a check valve may fix this, but I think that it may do more harm than good, because it's an element in the line that cause some flow restriction (as minimal as it may be.)
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CarloM
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Apr 2013
Posts: 332
Location: Los Angeles
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Vetrano V2B
Grinder: Mazzer Mini-E Type A, SJ...
Drip: Toddy
Posted Wed Oct 30, 2013, 9:06am
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

My GRRR sound only happens when I pull the brew lever up, about 60% of the time now but the interesting thing is that the first month of ownership it never happened, that I can recall. It only cropped up in the last month or so. Again, that may coincide with the autofill not kicking on as much. Again in the first month the autofill almost always kicked on when I turned the machine on. Now it only kicks on about 25% of the time. I always keep the reservoir at least half full. I use crystal geyser 3 grains (measured) water.

Some days the GRRR is louder/throatier than others. Some days it doesn't happen at all. I thought that if I start the machine and then pull the lever to get water in the pipes it would eliminate this. It does not. It lessens the instance of it happening but it still does. The other day it happened for the first time on an already warm and used once machine. I had used it at 8am and forgotten I left the brew boiler (not the steam) on, and when I pulled the lever up at 9am the sound happened again.

I'll start recording using my phone and post videos. I encourage others to do the same and maybe we can all compare/diagnose it together.
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Tonyv138
Senior Member


Joined: 16 Jun 2013
Posts: 74
Location: tx
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: V2B
Grinder: Mazzer SJ
Posted Wed Oct 30, 2013, 10:49am
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

I called CCS service about it today. They suggested 2 things:
  1. they think that on a fully heated machine water vaporized in the pipes may accumulate from heat, and suggested to lift the brew handle, but not activate the pump to eject. See what happens.
  2. record the noise and send it to them for diagnosis. I'll try to record and send it, but i am bot too good with the movie recording stuff. Carlo, if you can help and send your recording to CCS service, that may help as well.

thanks
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CarloM
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Apr 2013
Posts: 332
Location: Los Angeles
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Vetrano V2B
Grinder: Mazzer Mini-E Type A, SJ...
Drip: Toddy
Posted Wed Oct 30, 2013, 3:28pm
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

Thanks for posting Tony. I think I've tried a) before - just lifting the handle to the 1/4 position without activating the pump but it still happened, I'll double check, and I'll definitely do b)

I had heard something similar when I was getting that chemical smell out of my brewhead water. It's since subsided. I think it may have come from either residual Cafiza stuck way up in the E61, or the Cafiza actually broke down some of the lubricant in the E61 and that's what was causing the smell. I had followed CCS instruction and only backflushed with cleaner once in the first two months of ownership, and I think the smell came shortly thereafter. I only used a small amount of cleaner (the small spoon at the end of the coffeetool) and did many clean water backflushes but I think maybe some of the Cafiza got way up in there. Or the lube broke down. Anyway I did many more clean backflushes, each one lasting more than seven seconds to really make sure the water got up in all parts of the brew group, and now the smell has basically disappeared. But now I'm afraid to ever do Cafiza backflushes ever again. That smell lasted in the water I was getting for weeks!
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CarloM
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Apr 2013
Posts: 332
Location: Los Angeles
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Vetrano V2B
Grinder: Mazzer Mini-E Type A, SJ...
Drip: Toddy
Posted Thu Oct 31, 2013, 11:30am
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

So I finally captured and uploaded a video of the sound. This example is about as loud as the sound gets. Sometimes it's about 50% softer. And again, sometimes it doesn't happen at all. This particular instance the machine had warmed up for about 45 minutes but the autofill did not kick in when I first powered it on.

Note: I normally just pull the brew lever straight up and the noise still happens about 60% of the time, but there was a theory that maybe lifting the lever 1/4 up but not activating the pump would release any trapped air, so that is what I tried in this video. Clearly it didn't work because when I lifted the lever the rest of the way the noise still emanated from the machine.

I have sent this video to CCS as well, am waiting to hear back as to what they think it is.

Click here for the Youtube Video
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cuznvin
Senior Member


Joined: 6 Oct 2011
Posts: 656
Location: NY
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Spaziale Mini Vivaldi II
Grinder: MACAP M4 Stepless /Baratza...
Drip: YouBrew
Posted Thu Oct 31, 2013, 11:41am
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

wow... that IS annoying!
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