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Another DB Quickmill
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Discussions > Espresso > Machines > Another DB...  
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Mort108
Senior Member
Mort108
Joined: 11 Jul 2013
Posts: 21
Location: Saint Louis
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Vetrano 2B, ROK
Grinder: Baratza Forte
Roaster: Local
Posted Sat Oct 12, 2013, 11:02am
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

JaniceAnn Said:

I thought that hardness was supposed to be no higher than 3 grains?  Am I mistaken about this?

Posted October 11, 2013 link

JaniceAnn...4 grains is ideal.  Here is a link to the SCAA water standard used for barista competitions.

Click Here (www.scaa.org)

I also learned that on the Mavea, the filter is the housing ...no outside casing.  
pShoe..good question on the 50..I will see if I can check that out.  By the way, you can adapt John Guest fittings for the connection..seems pretty easy.
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cuznvin
Senior Member


Joined: 6 Oct 2011
Posts: 656
Location: NY
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Spaziale Mini Vivaldi II
Grinder: MACAP M4 Stepless /Baratza...
Drip: YouBrew
Posted Sat Oct 12, 2013, 11:11am
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

Mort108 Said:

JaniceAnn...4 grains is ideal.  Here is a link to the SCAA water standard used for barista competitions.

Click Here (www.scaa.org)

I also learned that on the Mavea, the filter is the housing ...no outside casing.  
pShoe..good question on the 50..I will see if I can check that out.  By the way, you can adapt John Guest fittings for the connection..seems pretty easy.

Posted October 12, 2013 link

Not according to Chris coffee. They said  3 grains or less
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germantownrob
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germantownrob
Joined: 2 Dec 2007
Posts: 2,136
Location: Philadelphia
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Duetto 3, A Dead Oscar
Grinder: Vario-W, Preciso w/Esatto,...
Drip: Brazen
Roaster: Diedrich IR-1, HT B
Posted Sat Oct 12, 2013, 11:43am
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

cuznvin Said:

Not according to Chris coffee. They said  3 grains or less

Posted October 12, 2013 link

Chris' is saying 3 grains is best for keeping scale down on espresso machines but that does not mean it is where water tastes best.
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cuznvin
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Joined: 6 Oct 2011
Posts: 656
Location: NY
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Spaziale Mini Vivaldi II
Grinder: MACAP M4 Stepless /Baratza...
Drip: YouBrew
Posted Sat Oct 12, 2013, 11:47am
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

germantownrob Said:

Chris' is saying 3 grains is best for keeping scale down on espresso machines but that does not mean it is where water tastes best.

Posted October 12, 2013 link

is it possible for someone to taste the difference between 3 or 4 grains? if not, i would prefer to stay at 3 grains and keep scale down.
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germantownrob
Senior Member
germantownrob
Joined: 2 Dec 2007
Posts: 2,136
Location: Philadelphia
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Duetto 3, A Dead Oscar
Grinder: Vario-W, Preciso w/Esatto,...
Drip: Brazen
Roaster: Diedrich IR-1, HT B
Posted Sat Oct 12, 2013, 12:29pm
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

cuznvin Said:

is it possible for someone to taste the difference between 3 or 4 grains? if not, i would prefer to stay at 3 grains and keep scale down.

Posted October 12, 2013 link

Lol! I really don't know but the SCAA and the winners seem to.

However tasting 0 grain and 3 grain there is a huge difference.

I am fine with 6 grain personally. Descaling is not a big deal, more time consuming then anything.

What I like about the Mavea filter is you get to try what ever setting taste best to you, 3 grain, 4 grain, etc. However the research I did when I got overwhelmed with filtration systems for plumbing in was this system did not actually remove the things that made water hard rather it changed it so it would not leave scale behind. It didn't make sense to me to use a system like this on the entire house for the money but to do it for the espresso machine at a relatively good price is something I am seriously considering.

Edit I don't mean Mavea when I said this system up above, I mean using ion exchange systems. From my small research using salt or equivalent is the only means to remove hardness from the water. Magnets are also claimed to remove the things that build scale up and you can spend over a $1000 to find out it doesn't work.
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pShoe
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Joined: 13 Nov 2012
Posts: 57
Location: Fort Lauderdale
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Sat Oct 12, 2013, 12:46pm
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

DavecUK Said:

It does stay dissolved....make sure though it'sbicarbonate of soda, Baking powder might the the one with a Bicarb and Cream of Tartar dry mix, which activates with flour when water is added to produce carbon dioxide for the rise. You don't want to use Baking Powder.

I've been using sodium bicarb+ro water for 6 years now.....never a problem.

Posted October 12, 2013 link

My bad, I meant baking soda. I can't find bicarbonate, but I think baking soda is what Americans call bicarbonate. So I should be good to go with baking soda, right?

edit: The ingredient on the box of baking soda says sodium bicarbonate. BTW, it is such a miniscule amount per liter. It's hard to imagine such a tiny bit has any effect at all.
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ECM
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ECM
Joined: 11 Oct 2003
Posts: 476
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia Canada
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Mazzer Robour E
Vac Pot: French Press
Drip: no
Roaster: Fresh Roast+8,  i-roast and...
Posted Sat Oct 12, 2013, 2:47pm
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

For what it's worth:

I had a Giotto Premium for 10 years.  I fed it 80% Colligen RO water mixed with 20% spring water.  When tested it came in under the 3 mark.  I never ever had an issue with scale.  

As long as you follow a similar water recipe you should be fine.  In terms of taste I thought it tasted fine.  I think people get a bit too concerned over the whole water issue.  I know when I first started out I was really freaked out and thought I was going to screw things up but everything turned out fine.  80/20 . . . it really is that simple!  

Rob
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DavecUK
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Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Posts: 1,331
Location: UK
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Sat Oct 12, 2013, 8:16pm
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

pShoe Said:

My bad, I meant baking soda. I can't find bicarbonate, but I think baking soda is what Americans call bicarbonate. So I should be good to go with baking soda, right?

edit: The ingredient on the box of baking soda says sodium bicarbonate. BTW, it is such a miniscule amount per liter. It's hard to imagine such a tiny bit has any effect at all.

Posted October 12, 2013 link

Yes baking soda is what I think you call it out in the colonies. I know it's only a small amount, but it's a very good buffer and it only has to deal with a small amount of CO2 dissolved in the water (as a result of the RO process).

RO removes most crap from the water, including Calacium & Magnesium Carbonates responsible for hardness, trouble is it doesn't remove the gasses (CO2), so once the carbonates have gone, they no longer buffer the Ph of the water and the CO2 makes the water slightly acid. Sodium Bicarb acts as a very good buffer and you don't need much returning the Ph to 7-7.5 ish (from memory), thus preventing copper corrosion. Upon heating it converts into Sodium Carbonate. Sodium Carbonate, unlike Calcium Carbonate doesn't scale, it forms a thin layer that doesn't build up. However as far as taste is concerned, it has the same effect on perceived bitterness etc.. as Calcium Carbonate. It also registers on a TDS meter. Well actually it reads slightly higher for the same molar concentration.

You can do a lot of expensive things or simply add a bit of bicarb to RO water. The dissolved ions have the desired effect on taste.

Where you may have a problem with Sodium carbonate is in the displacement reaction of a water softener, where you get an amount of sodium carbonate that might be 5 times higher in a hard water area. As 2 sodiums displace 1 Calcium, I would think taste might well be affected with very hard water (above 300ppm carbonate hardness) going through a softener, but probably not for moderately hard.
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pShoe
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Joined: 13 Nov 2012
Posts: 57
Location: Fort Lauderdale
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Sat Oct 12, 2013, 9:22pm
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

DavecUK Said:

Yes baking soda is what I think you call it out in the colonies. I know it's only a small amount, but it's a very good buffer and it only has to deal with a small amount of CO2 dissolved in the water (as a result of the RO process).

RO removes most crap from the water, including Calacium & Magnesium Carbonates responsible for hardness, trouble is it doesn't remove the gasses (CO2), so once the carbonates have gone, they no longer buffer the Ph of the water and the CO2 makes the water slightly acid. Sodium Bicarb acts as a very good buffer and you don't need much returning the Ph to 7-7.5 ish (from memory), thus preventing copper corrosion. Upon heating it converts into Sodium Carbonate. Sodium Carbonate, unlike Calcium Carbonate doesn't scale, it forms a thing layer that doesn't build up. However as far as taste is concerned, it has the same effect on perceived bitterness etc.. as Calcium Carbonate. It also registers on a TDS meter. Well actually it reads slightly higher for the same molar concentration.

You can do a lot of expensive things or simply add a bit of bicarb to RO water. The dissolved ions have the desired effect on taste.

Where you may have a problem with Sodium carbonate is in the displacement reaction of a water softener, where you get an amount of sodium carbonate that might be 5 times higher in a hard water area. As 2 sodiums displace 1 Calcium, I would think taste might well be affected with very hard water (above 300ppm carbonate hardness) going through a softener, but probably not for moderately hard.

Posted October 12, 2013 link

This whole Bicarb, Cream of Tartar, baking soda name thing is reminding me of that scene in Pulp Fiction.

I have the RO water in my tank now, but my machine has not had to pump water into the boilers yet. I'm guessing it will take a couple cycles to get all the old water out. CCS's test strips are hopefully not too inaccurate so I don't think I have very hard water. A map I found a while back has my area as 121-180 calcium carbonate in milligrams per liter, which is probably in the moderately hard level.

I'm assuming the 2 weeks using filtered tap water is not a big deal and hasn't had the time to buildup scale. I'm I justified thinking descaling wouldn't accomplish anything? I know it seems silly, it does to me too, but now that I'm using bicarb treated RO water I'd hate for any negative effects that 2 weeks worth of moderately hard water use could have on my machine or espresso taste going forward.
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pShoe
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Joined: 13 Nov 2012
Posts: 57
Location: Fort Lauderdale
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Thu Oct 17, 2013, 10:45am
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

Have anyone sourced a US seller for the 8mm soft group gasket that allows bulk purchases? Would anyone be interested in a group buy if we can make arrangements?
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