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Rocket Giotto/Cellini Evo v2 vs R58 v2
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goph
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Joined: 8 Oct 2013
Posts: 3
Location: Here
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Tue Oct 8, 2013, 12:19pm
Subject: Rocket Giotto/Cellini Evo v2 vs R58 v2
 

Long time lurker (since 2007 or so!).  First time poster.  

Based on the amazing resource that this site is, I bought a Silvia and Rocky back in 2008.  I am now ready to upgrade.  I thought I had settled on an HX machine, either the Giotto or Cellini (can't decide which body style I like better!), but in the last few days I've been thinking about the R58.  Frankly, this isn't really due to the HX/DB debate, but rather:  it is only a couple hundred more, so why not?

Here's my thinking: If I buy the Giotto, I'd want the EricS temp mod as well as the metal cup rail ($100).  So the Giotto plus these two items is only $200 less than the R58.  At that price, regardless of the virtues of the HX/DB debate, wouldn't it be worth stepping up to the R58?

One powerful point in favor of the Giotto is that its track record is MUCH longer, and it is a very mature/well-proven machine.

Any thoughts?


ps: Don't even get me started on my back-and-forth between the Giotto and the Cellini....


Thanks!
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NobbyR
Senior Member
NobbyR
Joined: 10 Jul 2011
Posts: 1,991
Location: Germany
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Poccino Opus One, Ariete
Grinder: Eureka Mignon Istantaneo
Vac Pot: N/A
Drip: Melitta Linea Unica de Luxe
Roaster: N/A
Posted Tue Oct 8, 2013, 11:07pm
Subject: Re: Rocket Giotto/Cellini Evo v2 vs R58 v2
 

Welcome to CoffeeGeek!

Both machines will mean a noticable upgrade, especially as far as convenience is concerned, although you'll have more improvement from upgrading your grinder first.

As a general rule, a dual boiler machine doesn't brew better espresso than a heat exchanger, it just works differently. However, DBs are fashionable at the moment. Whether you'll profit from a DB largely depends on your coffee drinking habits. If you tend to stick with one variety of beans and brewing temperature (at least over a longer period of time), the R58 will offer you great thermostability. On the other hand, if you like to experiment with different beans and brewing temperatures, an HX will have advantages.

You can, of course, change the brewing temperature of a DB machine easily by programming the PID. But when you do, it takes quite a while (I'd say about 20 minutes), before the whole machine is thermally stable again and the change is really effective. That's what makes it tedious to experiment with different brewing temperatures, whereas with an HX machine you can simply shorten or prolong the cooling flush in order to try out different temperatures on the fly. You can even profile your HX by measuring the temperature in relation to the length of the flush. A chart like that is pretty reliable, too.

 
***
"This drink of the Satan is so delicious that it would be a shame to leave it to the infidels." (Pope Clement VIII on coffee, when he was urged to ban the beverage)
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calblacksmith
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calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 7,479
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Wed Oct 9, 2013, 5:58am
Subject: Re: Rocket Giotto/Cellini Evo v2 vs R58 v2
 

goph Said:

Long time lurker (since 2007 or so!).  First time poster.  

Posted October 8, 2013 link

Welcome!

goph Said:

Based on the amazing resource that this site is, I bought a Silvia and Rocky back in 2008.  I am now ready to upgrade.  I thought I had settled on an HX machine, either the Giotto or Cellini (can't decide which body style I like better!), but in the last few days I've been thinking about the R58.  Frankly, this isn't really due to the HX/DB debate, but rather:  it is only a couple hundred more, so why not?

Posted October 8, 2013 link

Like Nobby said, the end product is the same, the route to the end is slightly different and because there are more parts inside a DB, they cost more, that does not equate to they are better, simply  they cost more. Your personal habits and practice will dictate which MAY be better for you.

You will want to upgrade the grinder too, Rocky has pretty wide steps and in the last years, much better grinders have become affordable.


goph Said:

Here's my thinking: If I buy the Giotto, I'd want the EricS temp mod as well as the metal cup rail ($100).  So the Giotto plus these two items is only $200 less than the R58.  At that price, regardless of the virtues of the HX/DB debate, wouldn't it be worth stepping up to the R58?

Posted October 8, 2013 link

I am not a fan of either of these things, the thermometer has caused more trouble than issues it has solved when years of discussion are taken in a high altitude view, in my HO, it is simply another gadget to play with. That is OK but not a lot of help. When I first started I wanted one but as I procrastinated buying one, I overcame the need and now see it as a gadget. That is a personal view point, if a person feels it helps, go ahead and buy then use one.

Metal rail? I don't even have a rail on my ECM (bigger brother to the Rocket) so while it is pretty to look at, it is not really a must have.


goph Said:

One powerful point in favor of the Giotto is that its track record is MUCH longer, and it is a very mature/well-proven machine.

Any thoughts?

Posted October 8, 2013 link

They are good machines,  they are well built and will last a long time, they are NOT home grade appliances, they are quality machines.

goph Said:

ps: Don't even get me started on my back-and-forth between the Giotto and the Cellini....

Thanks!

Posted October 8, 2013 link

This is simply a decision of personal preference (as so much in this hobby is) which would you rather look at and go with that one.

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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goph
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Joined: 8 Oct 2013
Posts: 3
Location: Here
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Wed Oct 9, 2013, 11:54am
Subject: Re: Rocket Giotto/Cellini Evo v2 vs R58 v2
 

Thanks for the replies.  I think I'm leaning towards the Giotto Evo.  And I think I may simply not use any cup rail, since the Giotto's top has a decent height lip all around.  

If I were to upgrade my grinder, I've been thinking of the Baratza Vario.  Any advice or other suggestions?  I live in a small apartment, so size is an issue (besides, the Giotto will take up a fair amount of room).
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dsblv
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Joined: 2 Dec 2006
Posts: 190
Location: Bellevue, WA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Rocket Giotto Evoluzione
Grinder: MACAP MC4
Posted Wed Oct 9, 2013, 9:42pm
Subject: Re: Rocket Giotto/Cellini Evo v2 vs R58 v2
 

I've had a Giotto Evo for two years and love the machine.  I have both the group thermometer and the metal guard rail.  Personally, I think the group thermometer is a "must have" accessory for HX machines.  It helps me manage brew temperature and produce consistently good shots.

I also like having the metal rail on the machine.  It's much better looking than the plastic piece that comes with the Rockets and is a nice finishing touch to the Evo.

If you buy both accessories, you're within $200 of the R58 that comes with a PID controller and the metal rail.  I've wondered which machine I would buy if I had to do it over again. I typically only pull one shot at a time, so a double boiler is overkill for me.  Plus, double boilers are more complex than HX machines.  So, if I to buy another machine, I think I'd still lean towards the Evo.  But, it's a really close call :)
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qualin
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qualin
Joined: 30 Jun 2012
Posts: 646
Location: Calgary, AB
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Izzo Alex Duetto 3
Grinder: Mazzer Mini Elect. Type A
Vac Pot: Looking to buy
Drip: Manual
Roaster: Considering?
Posted Thu Oct 10, 2013, 1:48am
Subject: Re: Rocket Giotto/Cellini Evo v2 vs R58 v2
 

I'm going to leave out some of the information which NobbyR posted. Each machine, HX and DB is best suited for the habits you prefer. So, you
have to ask yourself how you like to pull your shots.

I was once in your situation with identical machines! I agree with everyone here. Get rid of that grinder ASAP!! I purchased a Mazzer Mini Electronic
to go with my Izzo Alex Duetto. They go very well together. If you are considering upgrading to a higher end prosumer machine, you really should get
a grinder which will make it shine, so compromise on the machine before you consider compromising on the grinder!

I considered the Rocket Cellini Evoluzione and the Izzo Alex, both of which are competitively priced. ($2,199 and $2,249 respectively.)
Then I compared the Rocket R58 and the Izzo Alex Duetto. ($2,695 and $2,795 respectively.) Both had comparable features and abilities.
Compared to their HX cousins, the price difference between the Rocket HX/DB and the Izzo HX/DB was $496 and $546 respectively.
(BTW, The prices I've quoted here are from idrinkcofee.com.)

IMO, if budget was a concern, I would sooner buy an HX and get a nicer grinder than buy a DB. If budget isn't a concern, then you might as well
just go "all the way" and consider either one of these DB machines if your shot pulling habits work best with it.

I personally felt that since I was already going to spend $2k anyway on a machine, it didn't make sense to me to not to spend an extra $500-ish.

One thing I admit that I really do like about DB machines is that you have the option of turning off the steam boiler. (Rocket calls it a service boiler.)
It's considerably easier to do it with the Alex Duetto (It's just a switch on the side) over the Rocket R58. (You have to flip a setting in the PID.)

The downside is that if the steam boiler isn't running, the machine doesn't do a very good job of heating your cups. As well, the coffee boiler tends
to cool down considerably faster because a lot of DB machines use the steam boiler in an HX loop to supply hot water to the brew boiler. Not really
a problem if you just plan on making a bunch of straight shots, but lousy if you just want hot water to make some tea. (I've tried it.)

One large upside to a DB is that you can let the machine spend a lot of time warming up and stabilizing without using too much power. A brew boiler
uses about as much power as a 40 watt incandescent light bulb to stay hot. I keep my machine on a timer and let it warm up for about an hour before
I wake up. After I wake up, I switch on the steam boiler and 8 minutes later it's ready for steam, then I turn it off when I'm done. In all honesty, using
the cup tray and the heat from the steam boiler to warm the cups is time consuming and only really useful for when you have company over. It's faster
to warm up cups using the hot water wand.

My biggest concern with owning an HX wasn't that I'd have to do cooling flushes before having my coffee in the morning, but rather the amount of
energy the machine would be using while warming up and stabilizing. Performing cooling flushes isn't a big deal for me, but I personally didn't see any
advantages to buying an HX over a DB, short of saving a few dollars.

Another thing to think about is that if you are a "Do it yourself" kind of guy, an HX machine will be easier to service because there only is one boiler.
A DB machine has a few more components and servicing requires a professional. (Unless you just want a big challenge. :-) )

The one thing you do have to ask yourself is, "I have to wake up every morning and see this machine on my counter. What is it that I want to look at?"
Then you have to imagine what you want your shot routine to be like every morning as well when you are half groggy. Imagine going through the steps
of pulling a shot on a DB and on a HX machine and see what works best for you.

All of the machines we're talking about are capable machines, it comes down more towards workflow and aesthetics between the machines.

In case you were wondering why I didn't pick a R58, initially it was because I wasn't fond of the outboard PID controller and that it was a first revision
machine at the time when I was considering one and they were still working through some bugs. They're onto a second revision now and really did a
great job of polishing it up. Now, I can completely understand why they outboarded the PID display.

On my Duetto, I've learned the hard way that one has to be very careful adjusting the PID while the group is hot, for obvious reasons. :-)
Then again, I very seldom adjust it so it's not really a big deal anyway.

Another thing to think about is that you want to be able to get service and support for the machine. There is a local Izzo dealer here in Calgary, but for
the Rocket, I'd have to bring the machine in from Ontario. If I needed warranty repair, I didn't want to have to cross ship a heavy machine. Considering the
large expense you will be making here, that should be something worth considering.

Good luck and please post a picture of your "espresso shrine" here when you do finally get the machine of your choice!

 
Garbage In, Garbage Out, for every step of the process. From Beans to grinder, grounds to machine, coffee to cup.
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goph
Senior Member


Joined: 8 Oct 2013
Posts: 3
Location: Here
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Mon Oct 14, 2013, 12:11pm
Subject: Re: Rocket Giotto/Cellini Evo v2 vs R58 v2
 

Thanks for the great feedback and advice!
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jwoodyu
Senior Member
jwoodyu
Joined: 31 Dec 2010
Posts: 841
Location: Michigan
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Allex Duetto II
Grinder: Mazzer Major
Roaster: Poppery
Posted Mon Oct 14, 2013, 1:17pm
Subject: Re: Rocket Giotto/Cellini Evo v2 vs R58 v2
 

It is a little like an airplane. You can have a Cessna 182 retract that makes decent ground speed can handle 4 grown men and their gear for payload and is super stable making it reactively easy to fly but not much fun. Or you can have chipmunk that can do about every aerobatic trick in the book but you dang well better be flying it or it will fly you straight into the ground.

The DB is 182 and the HX the chipmunk. I can bang out shot after shot with precession temp control and have steam power to spare. I will also say I can adjust my PID flush the machine and have it stabilized to a different temp quick enough for me when i am feeling "crafty" to which the HX fans say BS. The HX fans will tell you can they can be just a temperature precise with no effort to which I will say BS.

And the debate continue with folks on both sides of this debate making great espresso shot after shot. Take away just don't buy "cheap jack crap" and you can't go wrong.

 
Yes I put the BDB and CC1 in the same class, yes i have a reason for leaving SCG off my list, yes it is my opinion, yes it is subjective as opinions are by definition, no don't start a flame war because you disagree.
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