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PID on a HX?
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Discussions > Espresso > Machines > PID on a HX?  
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jonr
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Joined: 25 Jun 2013
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Location: Americas
Expertise: I like coffee
Posted Wed Mar 26, 2014, 6:35am
Subject: Re: PID on a HX?
 

At some point, BillC wrote:

"I did quite a few experiments to compare the 2 systems in 1994 when working on the GS3 project. What I found was the temperature probe actually performed a bit better (at least with my system) than the pressure sensor. Additionally it was easier and lower cost, to find off the shelf components for temperature measurement then pressure measurement."

Most pro mechanical pressurestat arguments go away once you already have a computer in the machine.  And you are capable of programming something a little smarter than the traditional PID algorithm.  And then there are pstat inaccuracy issues like hysteresis and atmospheric pressure sensitivity.

Or put it this way - I have both traditional HX with pstat and computer controlled temp, non-HX machines in my kitchen.  The latter consistently produces much better espresso.  The former is better for steam.
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lparsons21
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Posted Wed Mar 26, 2014, 6:50am
Subject: Re: PID on a HX?
 

boar_d_laze Said:

Whether we like it or not, PIDs are the wave of the future for HXs.  Good thing or bad?  I'm agnostic.    

Rich

Posted March 25, 2014 link

I agree, they are the wave of the future for HXs, but mostly for marketing reasons imo.  I wouldn't turn down a PID equipped HX but neither would I put one on an HX either.  Just no need.

 
Lloyd
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calblacksmith
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calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
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Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
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Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Fri Mar 28, 2014, 6:49am
Subject: Re: PID on a HX?
 

lparsons21 Said:

I agree, they are the wave of the future for HXs, but mostly for marketing reasons imo.  I wouldn't turn down a PID equipped HX but neither would I put one on an HX either.  Just no need.

Posted March 26, 2014 link

I echo the no need but if you need to replace the Pstat anyway, for the cost of a good commercial Pstat, you can buy an inexpensive PID and SSR from Auber and "upgrade" the temp regulation system. I have a commercial HX that I bought with a bad Pstat and a few other problems. One of these days, I will get around to repairing it, when I do, I most likely will go PID, not that there is any magic in the device, rather, I do like the SSR vs mechanical contact points. Noise is not an issue for me, esp the soft click of the Pstat.

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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lparsons21
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Posted Fri Mar 28, 2014, 8:11am
Subject: Re: PID on a HX?
 

I have an SSR in my Alex because the mechanical power relay just wouldn't last a complete year.  

And I've been told that since I did that, the PSTAT should last longer since such a minimal amount of current is going through it compared to what was happening with the mechanical power relay.  I know that my current PSTAT has been in there for more than 4 years now, so I think that is valid.  At this rate, I doubt that I will upgrade to a PID system.

 
Lloyd
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DavecUK
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Posted Fri Mar 28, 2014, 10:53am
Subject: Re: PID on a HX?
 

lparsons21 Said:

I have an SSR in my Alex because the mechanical power relay just wouldn't last a complete year.  

And I've been told that since I did that, the PSTAT should last longer since such a minimal amount of current is going through it compared to what was happening with the mechanical power relay.  I know that my current PSTAT has been in there for more than 4 years now, so I think that is valid.  At this rate, I doubt that I will upgrade to a PID system.

Posted March 28, 2014 link

My Duetto is 7 years old, my pressurstat switches a Mechanical relay and I use decent water....no problems yet. If you switch a mechanical relay or an SSR with a pressurestat, they are only switching 10s of  milliamps...nothing really and no arcing across contacts. Also when your pressure stat eventually gives up the ghost, simply screw in another one with a bit of PTFE tape, a 5m job on the Alex and the cost, probably less than $20. They are so cheap, I think I have 2 spare Pstats, never used one in 7 years on any of my PS machines.
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mgk2031
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Posted Fri Mar 28, 2014, 12:40pm
Subject: Re: PID on a HX?
 

I had this exact same question!! Thank you
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Dave_E
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Posted Sat Mar 29, 2014, 11:52am
Subject: Re: PID on a HX?
 

boar_d_laze Said:

Well then, "nothing."  Because the ordinary cooling flush sights and sounds -- which are entirely independent of whether the HX's boiler is controlled by a PID or p-stat -- are sufficient to temp first the group, and then the brew water.

As a minor thing, I think the term "backed up" implies something which doesn't happen.  

Rich

Posted March 25, 2014 link

You are right - if the PID is solely for the boiler and not installed along the the flow path or at the group head.  I am not familiar where exactly the PID is reading for this model.  And yes the flush should be done by sound, listening for the cold water flow into the line to start.  "backed up" implied water that was sitting in the flow tube within the boiler prior to extraction, nothing more (I don't know the correct terminology  for the flow through tube that feeds the group head).  You guys here (I've been reading here for over a year, but not contributed) are really sticky about your terminology.

So yes, if it is reading the boiler, nothing; if at the group head, lets you know your flush is done prior to extraction.  Worded adequately now?
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calblacksmith
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calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 7,672
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Sun Mar 30, 2014, 5:08am
Subject: Re: PID on a HX?
 

You do not want the PID at the group head, a thermometer OK but a PID no. Remember the PID is controlling the STEAM water (where the heater is located), not the brew water (a different hot water circuit), if you are reading the group head (brew water) with a PID, the entire system will be WAY out of shape!

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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jonr
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Joined: 25 Jun 2013
Posts: 290
Location: Americas
Expertise: I like coffee
Posted Mon Mar 31, 2014, 5:44am
Subject: Re: PID on a HX?
 

You would benefit from a temperature based PID (or similar but smarter logic) on the boiler and one on the group.  The latter controlling either the group heater (G4) or thermosiphon flow rate (E61).  The group sensor would also provide some useful feedback during flush/wait.
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calblacksmith
Moderator
calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 7,672
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Mon Mar 31, 2014, 12:44pm
Subject: Re: PID on a HX?
 

To put one on the group, you would need to design a group to take advantage of it, just adding a PID on an existing machine not so designed will not do anything.

I am not aware of an active control for the thermosiphon system, such a device would require a redesign of a lot of the machine. If there is a electric heater on the group head, it will already have a method of being controlled.

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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