Our Valued Sponsor
OpinionsConsumer ReviewsGuides and How TosCoffeeGeek ReviewsResourcesForums
Espresso: Espresso Machines
Rocket Giotto slow recovery time for multiple shots
Rocket R58 Double Boiler
Rocket Espresso R58 Double Boiler -  Everything you need for the perfect shot!
www.seattlecoffeegear.com
 
Not Logged in: Log In to Postlog in
New Topics updated topics   New Posts new posts   Unanswered Posts new unanswered  
Search Discussion Board search   Discussion Board FAQ faq   Signup sign up  
Discussions > Espresso > Machines > Rocket Giotto...  
view previous topic | view next topic | view all topics
showing page 1 of 2 last page next page
Author Messages
albertdangles
Senior Member


Joined: 2 Oct 2013
Posts: 10
Location: QLD
Expertise: I live coffee

Posted Thu Oct 3, 2013, 2:24pm
Subject: Rocket Giotto slow recovery time for multiple shots
 

Hi,

I have an Australian model Rocket Giotto Premium Plus V1 (2.5mm thermosyphon restrictor + vibe pump) with an aftermarket group head thermometer (Eric's).

I'm trying to figure out a flushing regimen that will enable me to pump out more than two consecutive shots, and it's not working out too well.

I presently have the Pstat set to 1.3 Bar.

Here's how it's working out:

Shot 1.

  1. Idles at 205.5.
  2. Flush to 208. About 6oz or so.
  3. Load within about 10 seconds.
  4. Pour reads about 200-201 during middle of 30s shot.

So far good.

Shot 2.

  1. Wait for temp to stabilize 198/199.
  2. Flush briefly to clear screen.
  3. Load and pour.
  4. Again pour reads about 199-201 during middle of 30s shot.

Everything groovy. No complaints about the coffee.

Now comes the bad bit. The temp now heads seriously south (192-195), and takes between 1 and 2 minutes to flatten.

It can take as long as 6 minutes after the second shot for the temperature to rise back up to 197. And the same goes for subsequent shots.

Is this normal, and if not, what can I do about it?
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
dsblv
Senior Member


Joined: 2 Dec 2006
Posts: 191
Location: Bellevue, WA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Rocket Giotto Evoluzione
Grinder: MACAP MC4
Posted Thu Oct 3, 2013, 6:02pm
Subject: Re: Rocket Giotto slow recovery time for multiple shots
 

That recovery time is normal for a Rocket. The Giotto is a heat exchanger and it takes time for the thermosyphon loop to recover. Some HX machines run hotter and recover faster.  But that presents other problems. The Rocket is designed to balance group temperature versus recovery time.
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
albertdangles
Senior Member


Joined: 2 Oct 2013
Posts: 10
Location: QLD
Expertise: I live coffee

Posted Thu Oct 3, 2013, 6:54pm
Subject: Re: Rocket Giotto slow recovery time for multiple shots
 

Well that's a disappointing reveal. The reason I bought this particular machine was because I'd been led to believe I could bang out coffee after coffee with it.

Do you have any advice on how to manage the temperature?
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
dsblv
Senior Member


Joined: 2 Dec 2006
Posts: 191
Location: Bellevue, WA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Rocket Giotto Evoluzione
Grinder: MACAP MC4
Posted Thu Oct 3, 2013, 7:51pm
Subject: Re: Rocket Giotto slow recovery time for multiple shots
 

You can improve recovery by skipping the intermediate flushes you're doing.  You only need an initial flush to get the temperature right. Additional flushes aren't needed if you're pulling consecutive shots.
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
albertdangles
Senior Member


Joined: 2 Oct 2013
Posts: 10
Location: QLD
Expertise: I live coffee

Posted Thu Oct 3, 2013, 9:07pm
Subject: Re: Rocket Giotto slow recovery time for multiple shots
 

dsblv Said:

You can improve recovery by skipping the intermediate flushes you're doing.  You only need an initial flush to get the temperature right. Additional flushes aren't needed if you're pulling consecutive shots.

Posted October 3, 2013 link

Thanks Dave. I'm really only cleaning between shots. Less than a second probably.

So what process do you go through when pulling consecutive shots on your Giotto - do you look at temperature thresholds for a guide?

And do you think I'd gain anything by tweaking the Pstat up or down?
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
calblacksmith
Moderator
calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 7,942
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Fri Oct 4, 2013, 2:22am
Subject: Re: Rocket Giotto slow recovery time for multiple shots
 

Running the boiler hoter will shorten recovery time but will require more cooling, on the other hand, you get more steam
The other thing you can do is just slow down a little, every machine has a balance point if you are frustrated with this machine, you would absoultly go nuts waiting for a SBDU to recover.

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
back to top
 View Profile Visit website Link to this post
CMIN
Senior Member


Joined: 14 Jun 2012
Posts: 1,450
Location: South FL
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Crossland CC1
Grinder: Baratza Preciso
Posted Fri Oct 4, 2013, 4:34am
Subject: Re: Rocket Giotto slow recovery time for multiple shots
 

calblacksmith Said:

Running the boiler hoter will shorten recovery time but will require more cooling, on the other hand, you get more steam
The other thing you can do is just slow down a little, every machine has a balance point if you are frustrated with this machine, you would absoultly go nuts waiting for a SBDU to recover.

Posted October 4, 2013 link

May depend lol, my CC1 recovers way faster then what he posted. I don't know the Giotto, but 6 minutes and not even back to temp, that can't be right?!? I can pull shot after shot fairly quickly on the CC1 after weighing beans, grinding, dosing, gonna make three right now so I'll have to time it (edit - about 50 seconds back to temp). I too would think an H/X should be able to pull shot after another almost immediately, I've used H/Xs before one w/ Erics thermometer and was under the impression that's what the whole point was (that and steaming power).

Unless the Giotto is setup more like how Dave said where I guess their thinking is you'll make a shot, steam the milk, prep the drink etc... then come back to do another and by that point it's stable again.
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
calblacksmith
Moderator
calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 7,942
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Fri Oct 4, 2013, 4:50am
Subject: Re: Rocket Giotto slow recovery time for multiple shots
 

I have not seen slow recovery on a HX, if I wait just long enough to dose, distribute tamp and load, I need to cool the system as it got too hot in the wait time on the M32. When I had an Oscar, from what I remember, the clean flush had a hint of steam that was cleared nearly instantly with the clean flush.

The ECM was better (slower??) at this as a quick clean flush did not affect anything and at a reasonable pace, I was very consistent in temp with only prep time between shots.

I did have a member bring a Rocket over to the house a few years ago and I don't remember a long wait between shots but that was a while ago and I do not own a Rocket but I have a hard time with understanding the slow recovery.

My ECM was (is) running at 1.1 bar and my M32 is at 1.3 according to it's meter. Perhaps his machine is a bit cool?

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
back to top
 View Profile Visit website Link to this post
albertdangles
Senior Member


Joined: 2 Oct 2013
Posts: 10
Location: QLD
Expertise: I live coffee

Posted Fri Oct 4, 2013, 1:19pm
Subject: Re: Rocket Giotto slow recovery time for multiple shots
 

Thanks for your help everyone.

The only other thing I can think to adjust is my boiler fill height. My understanding is steam is a better heat conducter so if the level is too high that might explain it.

The sensor rod got pulled up when descaling a while back, and being a halfwit I forgot to take note of its original height. I have no idea what's the optimum level for it.

I just tried pushing it all the way down - reducing the water height to its mininum, but the constant clicking of the pstat cycling drove me nuts. Now it's up about 8mm, which is lower than it was.

It'll be interesting to see if that has any effect.
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
albertdangles
Senior Member


Joined: 2 Oct 2013
Posts: 10
Location: QLD
Expertise: I live coffee

Posted Fri Oct 4, 2013, 3:42pm
Subject: Re: Rocket Giotto slow recovery time for multiple shots
 

albertdangles Said:

Thanks for your help everyone.

The only other thing I can think to adjust is my boiler fill height. My understanding is steam is a better heat conducter so if the level is too high that might explain it.

The sensor rod got pulled up when descaling a while back, and being a halfwit I forgot to take note of its original height. I have no idea what's the optimum level for it.

I just tried pushing it all the way down - reducing the water height to its mininum, but the constant clicking of the pstat cycling drove me nuts. Now it's up about 8mm, which is lower than it was.

It'll be interesting to see if that has any effect.

Posted October 4, 2013 link

Well that didn't help. I'm completely at sea on boiler level. I don't know whether it's too high, too low or whether it matters. I can't find any guide online telling me where I should set it.

No problems with steam. It's dry, plentiful and good. I'm happy with espresso extraction and taste. Once it's up to temp.

I've freshly descaled the machine. Cleaned the gicleur and mushroom. Greased the autofill probe. Taken off the top thermosyphon tube - with restrictor - and cleaned that. And wound the Pstat back to 1.2 (generally recommended level it seems).

So current recovery time is as follows:

After running 30 second flush finishing at 198.

Temp gradually drops to 192.6. Takes 89 seconds to tick up.

Takes further 137 seconds (2:17 minutes) to reach 196.0.

Takes further 57 seconds to reach 197.0.

And continues eventually to 203.5, creeps to 205 and drops back down to 203.0 over the space of a few hours.

So assuming 197 is about the minimum starting temp (is it?), that's a turnaround time of about 6 minutes.

Something's got to be wrong here.
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
showing page 1 of 2 last page next page
view previous topic | view next topic | view all topics
Discussions > Espresso > Machines > Rocket Giotto...  
New Topics updated topics   New Posts new posts   Unanswered Posts new unanswered     Search Discussion Board search   Discussion Board FAQ faq   Signup sign up  
Not Logged in: Log In to Postlog in
Discussions Quick Jump:
Symbols: New Posts= New Posts since your last visit      No New Posts= No New Posts since last visit     Go to most recent post= Newest post
Forum Rules:
No profanity, illegal acts or personal attacks will be tolerated in these discussion boards.
No commercial posting of any nature will be tolerated; only private sales by private individuals, in the "Buy and Sell" forum.
No SEO style postings will be tolerated. SEO related posts will result in immediate ban from CoffeeGeek.
No cross posting allowed - do not post your topic to more than one forum, nor repost a topic to the same forum.
Who Can Read The Forum? Anyone can read posts in these discussion boards.
Who Can Post New Topics? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post new topics.
Who Can Post Replies? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post replies.
Can Photos be posted? Anyone can post photos in their new topics or replies.
Who can change or delete posts? Any CoffeeGeek member can edit their own posts. Only moderators can delete posts.
Probationary Period: If you are a new signup for CoffeeGeek, you cannot promote, endorse, criticise or otherwise post an unsolicited endorsement for any company, product or service in your first five postings.
Learn @seattlecoffeegear
Learn all about coffee, watch videos, read how-to articles.
www.seattlecoffeegear.com
Home | Opinions | Consumer Reviews | Guides & How Tos | CoffeeGeek Reviews | Resources | Forums | Contact Us
CoffeeGeek.com, CoffeeGeek, and Coffee Geek, along with all associated content & images are copyright ©2000-2014 by Mark Prince, all rights reserved, unless otherwise indicated. Content, code, and images may not be reused without permission. Usage of this website signifies agreement with our Terms and Conditions. (0.398194074631)
Privacy Policy | Copyright Info | Terms and Conditions | CoffeeGeek Advertisers | RSS | Find us on Google+