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Professional espresso machine that doesn't consume much energy?
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Stuzzicadenti
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Joined: 18 Sep 2013
Posts: 1
Location: Normal, IL
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Wed Sep 18, 2013, 10:49am
Subject: Professional espresso machine that doesn't consume much energy?
 

I'm working on starting a "mini coffee shop" of sorts. It will be mobile, and I'd like it to be essentially self-sustaining. I've looked into the LaCimbali M27 (I'm planning on buying used - My budget is $4,000), but it consumes quite a bit of energy. If I'm not mistaken, the numbers are as follows: 5.5kW, 220V, 30 amps.

I'm really pushing for the use of solar panels in my operation. That would be good for power and aesthetically intriguing to customers, but it wouldn't be cheap at all.

Would anyone be able to suggest a machine - preferably LaCimbali - that consumes less energy? I'm thinking maybe a smaller machine than the M27 might be the only option.


-

Stuzzi
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ddubick
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Joined: 1 May 2012
Posts: 142
Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Nuova Simonelli Appia 1Gr
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Posted Wed Sep 18, 2013, 12:09pm
Subject: Re: Professional espresso machine that doesn't consume much energy?
 

Pretty sure someone else asked almost the exact same question a few months ago.  Pretty sure the answer was that it would be nearly impossible to power any fully electric machine with solar, I think a gas/propane machine was suggested then you could run electronics/pump/sink pump,etc on solar/battery.  Also for a business would you really want to limit yourself to only bright and sunny days (unless you pack in a ton of batteries that you charge overnight and the solar is essentially for show).
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calblacksmith
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calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 7,672
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
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Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Wed Sep 18, 2013, 12:52pm
Subject: Re: Professional espresso machine that doesn't consume much energy?
 

Don't even think of an electric powered machine, Gas is what you need. Solar cells will not be of much help either, it will take a boat load to make any power at all. LaCimbali has gas powered machines, just ask.

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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ddubick
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Posts: 142
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Espresso: Nuova Simonelli Appia 1Gr
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Roaster: Behmor 1600
Posted Wed Sep 18, 2013, 12:56pm
Subject: Re: Professional espresso machine that doesn't consume much energy?
 

Here is that thread: "Coffee Cart Advice"

Edit: Sorry... this is the one I was thinking of: "Expresso Machine to Bike Coffee in Rio de janeiro, Brasil"
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Burner0000
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Posted Wed Sep 18, 2013, 1:32pm
Subject: Re: Professional espresso machine that doesn't consume much energy?
 

I believe it is possible what your thinking and I have heard of someone doing this.  In order to get constant power incl charge time before you even open up to the public you would need a huge amount of panels and a battery bank..  I would look at 1-2 gas generators if you are stuck on running a large espresso machine.  Absolute minimum power you would need to run a 1 grp espresso machine would be 1600 W-1800 W.  Adding in other equipment like a brewer, espresso grinder, bulk grinder and water boiler your looking at a total approx power of 6.5kwh. Propane espresso machine would be more efficient but I don't see a huge difference in cost if you were to go with 1-2 generators.  Something like "THIS" I think would work.  6 kwh constant power you would get about 8 hours on a tank of gas.  There are some out there built onto a trailer that would work.  Also going solar isn't cheap for the power consumption you need you may end up spending more on the set up.

Have you talked to a specialist in solar energy to see what equipment you would need?
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calblacksmith
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calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 7,672
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Wed Sep 18, 2013, 2:06pm
Subject: Re: Professional espresso machine that doesn't consume much energy?
 

I looked into it a little for the house, 6KW will take a very large setup.

Any appliance that needs heat can be purchased to run on LP so the actual electrical can be cut down to the minimum of grinders and lights and perhaps a counter top blender or so. A bank of batteries and inverter will do it. At least it won't make any noise or fumes. Though today's generators are pretty good in those regards, not like batteries but pretty good.

I went to the link, 10KW is a fair sized generator. Depending on laws though, I would expect it to have to be built in. Portable generators are not able to be built in. There are fuel tank issues as well as exhaust.  I worked in the RV industry and ran the generator section there and for 3 years when I was in the Army. Also, watch out for just how the generator is labeled, often the TOTAL output is in large numbers but what each circuit is able to produce is not what you would expect. I have a portable gen set, rated at 3.8 KW, my total load was 20 amps at 120 v or 2400 watts. The problem was when trying to connect to the gen set, each 110 line was only good for 16 amps not the 20 I needed. Only with the output of the 220 v circuit would I be able to power my load. So with some scrounging, I found a 5Kw 220 to 120v step down transformer. I was still out the door under the cost of a gen set rated for what I needed but if one did not know what I knew or had the contacts I had, it likely would not have worked for them.

Of course, these are U.S.. laws so do contact the authorities where you are to learn what rules apply to you.

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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Burner0000
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Location: Cambridge, Ontario Canada
Expertise: Professional

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Drip: Manual Drip, French Press
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Posted Thu Sep 19, 2013, 5:48am
Subject: Re: Professional espresso machine that doesn't consume much energy?
 

So to answer your original question as long as you don't need more than 100 drinks and hour from your espresso machine a 1600 W 1 grp machine with a 4.0 L boiler will do it.  
In order to power it + brewer+grinder+fridge+blender you would need a solid set up of 8000-10,000 W solar kit only using a max of 6000 W.  
You would need battery bank of 8 deep cycle batteries, 1200 W charge controller and inverters for your machines. 3000 W for the espresso machine, 2000 W's for everything else.  

Solar panels.  approx 40x 250w panels (65"x 40")

This would make your venture 100% self sustaining for 10 hrs continuous per day. :)  I think there are 500 W panels out there too. If you can find them then you would only need half the space for panels.
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calblacksmith
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calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 7,672
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Thu Sep 19, 2013, 6:04am
Subject: Re: Professional espresso machine that doesn't consume much energy?
 

The problem with the above calculations is that the output voltage of the panels I googled, is optimum at 30 volts. To step up to 120 v and maintain the same current output, you need to X4 the wattage of the system.  To step up from 12v, you need X10 the requirements. Just saying.
Voltage times current = watts. Or to say it another way,  watts divided by voltage = current. The higher the voltage you take from the watts, the lower the current result will be. To step up voltage, you will reduce the output current, to maintain the same work to be done, you need to increase the size of the system (watts).

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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JasonBrandtLewis
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JasonBrandtLewis
Joined: 9 Dec 2005
Posts: 6,368
Location: Berkeley, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Elektra T1 - La Valentina -...
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Vac Pot: Yama 5-cup
Drip: CCD, Chemex
Roaster: No, no, not another...
Posted Fri Sep 20, 2013, 7:45am
Subject: Re: Professional espresso machine that doesn't consume much energy?
 

calblacksmith Said:

Don't even think of an electric powered machine, Gas is what you need. Solar cells will not be of much help either, it will take a boat load to make any power at all. LaCimbali has gas powered machines, just ask.

Posted September 18, 2013 link

Agreed -- gas/propane . . .

Astoria also has machines powered by propane.

 
A morning without coffee is sleep . . .
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