Our Valued Sponsor
OpinionsConsumer ReviewsGuides and How TosCoffeeGeek ReviewsResourcesForums
Espresso: Espresso Machines
Ideal espresso corner setup in your kitchen
Cafe Solutions
Commercial sales and service, nationwide installation, equipment leasing options.
www.seattlecoffeegear.com
 
Not Logged in: Log In to Postlog in
New Topics updated topics   New Posts new posts   Unanswered Posts new unanswered  
Search Discussion Board search   Discussion Board FAQ faq   Signup sign up  
Discussions > Espresso > Machines > Ideal espresso...  
view previous topic | view next topic | view all topics
showing page 3 of 4 first page | last page previous page | next page
Author Messages
JasonBrandtLewis
Senior Member
JasonBrandtLewis
Joined: 9 Dec 2005
Posts: 6,398
Location: Berkeley, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Elektra T1 - La Valentina -...
Grinder: Mahlkönig K30 Vario -...
Vac Pot: Yama 5-cup
Drip: CCD, Chemex
Roaster: No, no, not another...
Posted Sun Sep 15, 2013, 1:36pm
Subject: Re: Ideal espresso corner setup in your kitchen
 

I'm not going to argue with you, but -- yes -- it would.  You want something more industrial-looking, that's fine.  It's your house.  (It's also your money to spend.)  But I know plenty of people -- both here on CG and among my friends -- who use carts exactly like these . . . or something like this . . . .

It's ultimately up to you.

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\

Just a few examples . . .

1

2(a),  2(b), and 2(c) -- you can see the water bottles underneath.

3

4(a), 4(b), and 4(c).

5

6

7

8(a), and 8(b)

9

. . . and last but not least, 10 (all heavyweight commercial equipment).

This are examples from 2004-2007, but more can be found in the Espresso Shrines thread on CG . . .

 
A morning without coffee is sleep . . .
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
shnxx
Senior Member
shnxx
Joined: 3 Jul 2009
Posts: 128
Location: Pasadena
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Sun Sep 15, 2013, 1:39pm
Subject: Re: Ideal espresso corner setup in your kitchen
 

JasonBrandtLewis Said:

I'm not going to argue with you, but -- yes -- it would.  You want something more industrial-looking, that's fine.  It's your house.  (It's also your money to spend.)  But I know plenty of people -- both here on CG and among my friends -- who use carts exactly like these . . . or something like this . . . .

It's ultimately up to you.

Posted September 15, 2013 link

Thank you for the reply.
Sorry about my short reply which might have seemed rude.
I've looked through the threads here and on homebarista where people posted pictures of their setups and yes, it seems that a lot of people are using cart setups.

I used to have an IKEA cart too but just need something stainless steel to match the aesthetics of the kitchen.
Wife is already kicking me away from the kitchen countertops because it looks cluttered.
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
JasonBrandtLewis
Senior Member
JasonBrandtLewis
Joined: 9 Dec 2005
Posts: 6,398
Location: Berkeley, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Elektra T1 - La Valentina -...
Grinder: Mahlkönig K30 Vario -...
Vac Pot: Yama 5-cup
Drip: CCD, Chemex
Roaster: No, no, not another...
Posted Sun Sep 15, 2013, 1:54pm
Subject: Re: Ideal espresso corner setup in your kitchen
 

No worries -- as I've always said, at some point aesthetics come into play . . . stainless it is!  ;^)

 
A morning without coffee is sleep . . .
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
germantownrob
Senior Member
germantownrob
Joined: 2 Dec 2007
Posts: 2,153
Location: Philadelphia
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Duetto 3, A Dead Oscar
Grinder: Vario-W, Preciso w/Esatto,...
Drip: Brazen
Roaster: Diedrich IR-1, HT B
Posted Sun Sep 15, 2013, 3:06pm
Subject: Re: Ideal espresso corner setup in your kitchen
 

I would also look at 36" kitchen sink cabs and a top of your liking, you can easily have a top end sink cab and a granite counter top for under $1000 if u do the work. The nice thing about kitchen cabs is they have lots of configurations but a sink cab is the cheapest, I have had custom counter tops made for me out of copper, SS, and concrete but sometimes you can find great deals on small sizes of wonderful stones when looking for small pieces. A good handy man or a slow contractor could install the entire setup in less then a day with plumbing. A flow Jet is great when you can't plumb in but in the long run plumbing in is cheaper and allows a filtration system as well as dealing with water softening if you need.

Edit: I was going to build an outdoor kitchen this summer so I researched SS cabs and was shocked at what they cost, even the ones that where inserts where well over $500 for a box, drawers where more. The stand alone pieces of any quality where in the $1k range for 18-24" pieces plus a top was needed. I ended up with a Weber grill with cabs and saved $5k with me doing the work plus with the weber I have a 25year warrenty for all the SS boxes plus it can move with us.

Here is a few pics do doing it with kitchen cabs.
Click Here (www.houzz.com)
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
boar_d_laze
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1,276
Location: Monrovia, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: La Cimbali M21 DT/1 Junior...
Grinder: Ceado E92; "Bunnzilla"
Vac Pot: Royal Coffee Maker
Drip: Chemex + Kone; Espro Press
Roaster: USRC Sample Roaster
Posted Sun Sep 15, 2013, 6:02pm
Subject: Re: Ideal espresso corner setup in your kitchen
 

Best $3K "pump" espresso machines
 Elektra T1; or
 La Cimbali M21 "Casa."
Both are HX, both have "volumetric dosing," and both require plumbing-in.  Both are true "professional" (as opposed to "prosumer") machines.  Each will make coffee as well as coffee can be made.  Both are excellent steamers.    As it happens, I have a Cimbali Casa.  

In the alternative you might want to consider one of the new levers:
 Bezzerra Strega; or
 Londinium I.
I understand that both are quite good, but lack enough personal experience to give you an endorsement.

The least expensive true professional DB machine is the La Marzcco GS/3.  There are no true professional double boiler machines in your price range.  The Izzo Alex Duetto, La Spaziale S1 Dream and Vivaldi II, Quickmill Vetrano 2b, Rocket R58, and Vibiemme Double Domo are all high end prosumers and are about equal in performance although there are some differences in use.  

There's only one major difference between professional and prosumer machines that will be reflected in the cup, most often in the forms of consistency and forgiveness -- and that's the difference in quality of the groups.  

Contrary to popular belief a DB machine is neither easier to learn nor to temp than an HX.  A DB is more convenient once dialed in. an HX is more convenient to dial in.  Dialing in the best temperature for a given bean or palate is entirely palate dependent, and can never be set "by the numbers."

You simply cannot make a better cup of coffee with any machine -- no matter how much it costs -- than you can with the Elektra T1, Cimbali Casa, or the GS/3.  People I trust say the Strega and Londinium are in the same class.

If I had to do it again, I'd get another Casa.  

Best $1500 grinder:
Compak K10 PB.

Hope this helps,
BDL
back to top
 View Profile Visit website Link to this post
JasonBrandtLewis
Senior Member
JasonBrandtLewis
Joined: 9 Dec 2005
Posts: 6,398
Location: Berkeley, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Elektra T1 - La Valentina -...
Grinder: Mahlkönig K30 Vario -...
Vac Pot: Yama 5-cup
Drip: CCD, Chemex
Roaster: No, no, not another...
Posted Sun Sep 15, 2013, 6:10pm
Subject: Re: Ideal espresso corner setup in your kitchen
 

boar_d_laze Said:

Best $3K "pump" espresso machines
 Elektra T1; or
 La Cimbali M21 "Casa."
Both are HX, both have "volumetric dosing," and both require plumbing-in.  Both are true "professional" (as opposed to "prosumer") machines.  Each will make coffee as well as coffee can be made.  Both are excellent steamers.    As it happens, I have a Cimbali Casa.  
/ / / / /
You simply cannot make a better cup of coffee with any machine -- no matter how much it costs -- than you can with the Elektra T1, Cimbali Casa, or the GS/3.  People I trust say the Strega and Londinium are in the same class.

Posted September 15, 2013 link

+1

boar_d_laze Said:

Contrary to popular belief a DB machine is neither easier to learn nor to temp than an HX.  A DB is more convenient once dialed in. an HX is more convenient to dial in.  Dialing in the best temperature for a given bean or palate is entirely palate dependent, and can never be set "by the numbers."

Posted September 15, 2013 link

+2

 
A morning without coffee is sleep . . .
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
shnxx
Senior Member
shnxx
Joined: 3 Jul 2009
Posts: 128
Location: Pasadena
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Sun Sep 15, 2013, 6:34pm
Subject: Re: Ideal espresso corner setup in your kitchen
 

Okay so on the topic of commercial HX vs. prosumer DB...

Is there a thread where a lot of thought is discussed on these matters?
Do HX machines have PID?
What differences can I expect from daily use?
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
boar_d_laze
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Nov 2006
Posts: 1,276
Location: Monrovia, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: La Cimbali M21 DT/1 Junior...
Grinder: Ceado E92; "Bunnzilla"
Vac Pot: Royal Coffee Maker
Drip: Chemex + Kone; Espro Press
Roaster: USRC Sample Roaster
Posted Mon Sep 16, 2013, 6:43am
Subject: Re: Ideal espresso corner setup in your kitchen
 

shnxx Said:

Okay so on the topic of commercial HX vs. prosumer DB...

Is there a thread where a lot of thought is discussed on these matters?

Posted September 15, 2013 link


Probably.  A lot of words have been spent on the subject of DB vs HX, and a lot on the subject of prosumer vs commercial.  What I've seen on commercial HX vs prosumer DB usually ends up with the conclusion that commercial is better, and that the differences between DB and HX are overhyped.  

There was a guy on HB recently who went through a week and a half of confusion, anxiety, buyer's remorse, and the tortures of the damned after getting rid of his VBM DD (or it could have been some other high-end DB) in favor of an Elektra T1 until he got the hang of the T1 -- which mostly meant a willingness to flush a lot of water to stabilize the group.  Now he loves his T1 like nobody's business.  

Parenthetically, it's a good idea to push lots of water through any thermo-siphonic group, specifically including the E-61, whether the machine is HX or DB.  

Do HX machines have PID?

 Sometimes, rarely.  But it's usually not a big deal one way or the other.  The "right" temperature for the water in an HX boiler has more to do with steam than temping the brew water -- which is accomplished by flushing.  On the other hand, PIDs are quieter and statistically longer lived than pressurestats, so they're not without some benefit.  The NEW and IMPROVED second generation Elektra T1 has a PID in lieu of a pressurestat and some other additional electronic functionality.  

What differences can I expect from daily use?

MUCH better steam from a commercial machine.  

People tend to dwell on temping when discussing the differences between HX and DBs.  The techniques are different, but getting temp right is pure palate.  DBs are a little less fussy once you've got them dialed in.

If you can taste the difference between bitter, "right," and sour, and can count slowly to five with your shoes on, you can temp an HX without any problem.  

As part of the temping process, commercial machines require more flushing than prosumers, and HXs require more flushing than DBs.  Large steam boilers require periodic flushing to keep the steam and hot water fresh and sweet, and because the T1's boiler is so large, it takes an extra few minutes.  No matter what kind of machine, it's a good idea to flush at least half the boiler's volume every couple of days.  Few home barista's flush enough.  

If you taste back to back, you'll detect some "in the cup differences" between machines.  However, those won't be imposed by the mechanices, build quality, or number of boilers; but by the group.  Groups leave a sort of signature.  Cimbali and La Marzocco groups are very "lively" (in the sense of allowing a lot of nuances to come through) The T1 group is slightly smoother.  The Nuova Simonelli group is smoother still (NS Appia is kinda sorta in your price range).  

The E-61s used in most prosumer DBs is relatively tame -- almost boring by comparison.  And if you're wondering if E-61 machines taste pretty much alike... yes, they almost always do.

Why is that?  Although I've seen speculation -- usually centered around the groups' respective "temperature humps" -- it's pretty clear that no one really knows why.  It's a "just is."  

Don't overrate this, the difference is subtle -- more difficult to taste than the differences between specific grinders and FAR more difficult to taste than the differences between beans or barista error.  And don't forget the larger context either.  With a good grinder, good beans, and good technique you can pull great shot after great shot with a good, prosumer DB.  I feel you have a better chance of consistent excellence with a commercial HX, but that's not a settled question.  

BDL
back to top
 View Profile Visit website Link to this post
JasonBrandtLewis
Senior Member
JasonBrandtLewis
Joined: 9 Dec 2005
Posts: 6,398
Location: Berkeley, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Elektra T1 - La Valentina -...
Grinder: Mahlkönig K30 Vario -...
Vac Pot: Yama 5-cup
Drip: CCD, Chemex
Roaster: No, no, not another...
Posted Mon Sep 16, 2013, 9:27am
Subject: Re: Ideal espresso corner setup in your kitchen
 

boar_d_laze Said:

Probably.  A lot of words have been spent on the subject of DB vs HX, and a lot on the subject of prosumer vs commercial.  What I've seen on commercial HX vs prosumer DB usually ends up with the conclusion that commercial is better, and that the differences between DB and HX are overhyped.

Posted September 16, 2013 link

Absolutely!  Two different ways to skin the same proverbial cat . . .

 
A morning without coffee is sleep . . .
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
shnxx
Senior Member
shnxx
Joined: 3 Jul 2009
Posts: 128
Location: Pasadena
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Mon Sep 16, 2013, 9:36am
Subject: Re: Ideal espresso corner setup in your kitchen
 

Okay thanks for clarifying.

It seems like I should skip the prosumer altogether and go straight to commercial then.
Although I don't want to spend 7000 dollars on a GS3 or an Elektra T1, if that is going to provide better steam performance, I guess it's worth it over the long run.

Regarding DB vs HX though, I have read that you might have to install some thermometer gadgets.
I'm not particularly inclined to tinker with electrical equipments much and I would rather buy a product that is going to work without any handy work other than installation.
If there is work to be done in terms of servicing, I would rather pay a professional locally to do it for me.
The temp surfing or water flushing on an HX doesn't sound too bad but I don't really like the idea of measuring time it takes to do certain tasks to ensure the right temperature.

I'm a bit concerned about the 20 amp requirement though as I have no idea whether my home has 20 or 15 amp circuit near the place I'm going to install.
The way the prongs look in the plugs nearby, it seems like I have 15 amp circuits...
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
showing page 3 of 4 first page | last page previous page | next page
view previous topic | view next topic | view all topics
Discussions > Espresso > Machines > Ideal espresso...  
New Topics updated topics   New Posts new posts   Unanswered Posts new unanswered     Search Discussion Board search   Discussion Board FAQ faq   Signup sign up  
Not Logged in: Log In to Postlog in
Discussions Quick Jump:
Symbols: New Posts= New Posts since your last visit      No New Posts= No New Posts since last visit     Go to most recent post= Newest post
Forum Rules:
No profanity, illegal acts or personal attacks will be tolerated in these discussion boards.
No commercial posting of any nature will be tolerated; only private sales by private individuals, in the "Buy and Sell" forum.
No SEO style postings will be tolerated. SEO related posts will result in immediate ban from CoffeeGeek.
No cross posting allowed - do not post your topic to more than one forum, nor repost a topic to the same forum.
Who Can Read The Forum? Anyone can read posts in these discussion boards.
Who Can Post New Topics? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post new topics.
Who Can Post Replies? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post replies.
Can Photos be posted? Anyone can post photos in their new topics or replies.
Who can change or delete posts? Any CoffeeGeek member can edit their own posts. Only moderators can delete posts.
Probationary Period: If you are a new signup for CoffeeGeek, you cannot promote, endorse, criticise or otherwise post an unsolicited endorsement for any company, product or service in your first five postings.
Craft Roasted Coffee
Some days you make the coffee. Other days the coffee makes you.
bit.ly/craftroasting-ks
Home | Opinions | Consumer Reviews | Guides & How Tos | CoffeeGeek Reviews | Resources | Forums | Contact Us
CoffeeGeek.com, CoffeeGeek, and Coffee Geek, along with all associated content & images are copyright ©2000-2014 by Mark Prince, all rights reserved, unless otherwise indicated. Content, code, and images may not be reused without permission. Usage of this website signifies agreement with our Terms and Conditions. (0.460253000259)
Privacy Policy | Copyright Info | Terms and Conditions | CoffeeGeek Advertisers | RSS | Find us on Google+