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melchionda
Senior Member


Joined: 3 Jul 2013
Posts: 8
Location: Mill Valley
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Sat Aug 24, 2013, 7:59am
Subject: Andreja Rapid Cycling
 

Folks, I recently found an old Andreja and had it retored and updated... its making decent shots but its heat cycling very quickly... like ever 5 to ten seconds the heater comes on for about 2 seconds.  From what I understand normal behavior is for the heater to come on more like once per minute.

Here is what I've checked so far, I'd be interested to know if anyone had any ideas as to what could be causing this:

1.) The Jaeger Pstat seems ok... I turned down the pressure setting on it and noticed that the low pressure guage then registered a lower pressure...I turn the Pstat setting back up and the pressure when up, so I can only assume that its working.

2.) The Water Level Prob connection.  A local service shop suggested that maybe I had an overflow condition.  I tested the water level probe connection by disconnecting the wire from probe letting the pump run and then grounding the sensor wire to the boiler.  Everything seemed to work normally in that if I grounded the wire on the boiler the pump would shut off... If I removed the wire from the boiler it would turn on.  

3.) Another suggestion was that the water level inside the boiler was too high...  Could there be a problem with the probe?  Seems to me either the probe will work or it will not... I dont see how it would all for the water level to be too high inside the boiler.

3.) I took a careful look around the machine while its on a pressurized and there are no leaks of steam or water.  Also, the boiler is insulated with a new layer of Chriscoffee's boiler insulation wrap.

Anyone have any ideas?

Sean
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calblacksmith
Moderator
calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 7,853
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Sat Aug 24, 2013, 9:26am
Subject: Re: Andreja Rapid Cycling
 

Sean, welcome to the board.
It just sounds like a very sensitive pstat.
Before you start adjusting everything in sight give the company you had rebuild it a call and talk to them. If you start tweaking on things you will void any warranty they offer.

The water level should be fine. Honestly it is operating more like a PID than a pstat. You will not hurt anything with it operating the way it is. The ratio of on to off is about normal but just a dit quicker. My pstat is on for about 10 seconds and the cycle is about 45 seconds apart.

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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melchionda
Senior Member


Joined: 3 Jul 2013
Posts: 8
Location: Mill Valley
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Sat Aug 24, 2013, 12:59pm
Subject: Re: Andreja Rapid Cycling
 

Thanks for the response!  :-)

I did call the company that did the work and have been working with them on the investigation.

I have two concerns...

1.) I heard that rapid cycling could ruin the heater.  If thats not the case then I guess the rapid cycling isn't a problem.

2.) I had a vacuum breaker valve installed on the top of the boiler because I have the machine on a timer so that when I get up in the morning the machine is ready to go.  I heard that a vacuum breaker valve enables you to use a timer.  The problem is that in the morning when I get up its a toss-up as to whether the machine is actually heating.  Most of the time the heater hasn't kicked in... (The machine is cold to the touch.). To get the machine to heat I have to turn the machine off and then back on... Only then does the heater kick in.  

Any ideas why the heater isn't coming on when the timer turns the machine on?

Sean.
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melchionda
Senior Member


Joined: 3 Jul 2013
Posts: 8
Location: Mill Valley
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Sat Aug 24, 2013, 2:37pm
Subject: Re: Andreja Rapid Cycling
 

Oh and another issue that I thought was fixed but just reared its ugly head...

The boiler will over fill to the point that the pressure relief valve on top of the boiler lets water spray all over the inside of the machine.  It just happened to me.

This afternoon I turn the machine on via the timer and after about a minute the pump came on.... But the. It never went off... So I shut the machine off and low and behold water was coming out the bottom again. It's definitely the pressure relief valve as I can see the water coming out of it.

:-(
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SStones
Senior Member
SStones
Joined: 24 Nov 2012
Posts: 477
Location: Canada
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: Giga 5, ECM Giotto, Rocket...
Grinder: Anfim Milano-Best
Vac Pot: No  :(
Drip: Some $30 thing from Walmart
Roaster: I buy pre-roasted.
Posted Sun Aug 25, 2013, 6:17am
Subject: Re: Andreja Rapid Cycling
 

melchionda Said:

Oh and another issue that I thought was fixed but just reared its ugly head...
The boiler will over fill to the point that the pressure relief valve on top of the boiler lets water spray all over the inside of the machine.  It just happened to me.
This afternoon I turn the machine on via the timer and after about a minute the pump came on.... But the. It never went off... So I shut the machine off and low and behold water was coming out the bottom again. It's definitely the pressure relief valve as I can see the water coming out of it.

Posted August 24, 2013 link

Good, then you know the problem is overfilling and related issues.
If water is forcing through the safety relief, it is proof that water is at the top of the boiler. Relatedly, the boiler is being pressurized by the pump forcing more water into an already overfilled boiler, that is why your p-stat is open and the machine is not heating.

Remove and clean the level probe. Is it possible that the sealing sleeve slid down too far over the probe when you were testing it? Anyway, the overfill problem is almost certainly there at the probe since you've tested the circuit.
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melchionda
Senior Member


Joined: 3 Jul 2013
Posts: 8
Location: Mill Valley
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Mon Aug 26, 2013, 6:00pm
Subject: Re: Andreja Rapid Cycling
 

The water level probe is spotlessly clean. I checked it already

Im Not sure what you mean by the potential for the sealing sleeve being to far down the probe.  I get it that if the seal around the probe gets forced into the boiler and covers the probe then its possible the probe can't tell how high the water level is and never tells the pump to stop filling the boiler... Hence the overflow.

Is it possible that based on how the water level probe is made that part of the seal could be forced into the boiler?

I'll try to take it out of the boiler tonight to see what I can see; but from the top the seal just looks like a white plastic piece with a hole in the center that the probe gets inserted into.
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calblacksmith
Moderator
calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 7,853
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Tue Aug 27, 2013, 7:01am
Subject: Re: Andreja Rapid Cycling
 

Like I said above, if there are problems with the machine, take it back to the people that did the work. Tell them of the issues that you are having.

Rapid cycling of the heater will not hurt it, not in the least. Running the heater without it being submerged in water will destroy it.

A vac breaker will not affect the operation of the machines heat cycle, it only opens up the line to the group head to let out false pressure until the boiler gets hot enough to generate steam, then once the steam pressure starts to climb, the vac breaker seals and closes then the system operates like the vac breaker was never there.

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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melchionda
Senior Member


Joined: 3 Jul 2013
Posts: 8
Location: Mill Valley
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Tue Aug 27, 2013, 9:04am
Subject: Re: Andreja Rapid Cycling
 

Like others on this forum... Taking the machine back to the shop is extremely difficult.  The shop is a two hour drive each way or between 40 and 60 dollars each way to ship it... Plus the expense of having it packaged for shipping.  

On another note....

I replaced the pstat last night and the machine now cycles perfectly!   Heater is on for about 10 seconds and off for 1:05.... It's like clockwork!

I am still having a problem with start up via the timer though.   This morning the machine was turned on via the timer at 5am but the heating cycle didn't start until I turned the machine off and then on again.   Once I did that the perfect cycle started.

So what could be preventing the heater from coming on?
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SStones
Senior Member
SStones
Joined: 24 Nov 2012
Posts: 477
Location: Canada
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: Giga 5, ECM Giotto, Rocket...
Grinder: Anfim Milano-Best
Vac Pot: No  :(
Drip: Some $30 thing from Walmart
Roaster: I buy pre-roasted.
Posted Tue Aug 27, 2013, 8:21pm
Subject: Re: Andreja Rapid Cycling
 

melchionda Said:

So what could be preventing the heater from coming on?

Posted August 27, 2013 link

Cold pressure in the boiler (Is there a boiler pressure gauge?) from overfilling or otherwise.
A faulty power board, either thinking there is no water available or not closing a relay properly. (If applicable)
A lack of adequate flow from the reservoir triggering the powerboard to notice the lack of water.
Water without enough mineral content(Appearing as lack of available water). (Unlikely if not recurring)

Instead of shutting it off and on, when not heating, open the steam valve for 5 seconds...  Does that get it heating?  If so, you've released the cold pressure and discovered at least one of the problems.
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Giampiero
Senior Member


Joined: 29 May 2013
Posts: 55
Location: Bangkok
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill Vetrano
Grinder: Fiorenzato F5
Posted Fri Aug 30, 2013, 6:01am
Subject: Re: Andreja Rapid Cycling
 

melchionda Said:

I am still having a problem with start up via the timer though.   This morning the machine was turned on via the timer at 5am but the heating cycle didn't start until I turned the machine off and then on again.   Once I did that the perfect cycle started.

So what could be preventing the heater from coming on?

Posted August 27, 2013 link

Maybe the main switch become"lazy"???
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