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Experts: Will I be able to taste a difference between CC1 and Vetrano B2?
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Discussions > Espresso > Machines > Experts: Will I...  
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Zevi
Senior Member


Joined: 28 Mar 2013
Posts: 112
Location: Ann Arbor
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Posted Mon Aug 19, 2013, 9:45am
Subject: Re: Experts: Will I be able to taste a difference between CC1 and Vetrano B2?
 

CarloM Said:

I'd like to see if myallawala ever compared his shot with the baristas from Intelligentsia (either the Chicago or L.A. shops). If he can truly make better shots than Intelligentsia baristas with his CC1, I'm going to cancel my V2B preorder and just get a CC1!

Posted August 19, 2013 link

In all seriousness, Carlo, and please don't take it the wrong way: if that's all it takes for you to change your mind and buy the CC1 instead of the V2B, then I think you'd be better off getting the CC1 right from the start.
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DeanOK
Senior Member
DeanOK
Joined: 24 Sep 2012
Posts: 666
Location: OK
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: QM Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Vario W
Posted Mon Aug 19, 2013, 11:14am
Subject: Re: Experts: Will I be able to taste a difference between CC1 and Vetrano B2?
 

Zevi Said:

In all seriousness, Carlo, and please don't take it the wrong way: if that's all it takes for you to change your mind and buy the CC1 instead of the V2B, then I think you'd be better off getting the CC1 right from the start.

Posted August 19, 2013 link

I gotta deal for 'ya. If I fall in love with the B2 I'll make you a deal on my CC1.  :)

I did hit a pretty good mark on my espresso this morning... I wish I could say that every day.
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CMIN
Senior Member


Joined: 14 Jun 2012
Posts: 1,362
Location: South FL
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Crossland CC1
Grinder: Baratza Preciso
Posted Mon Aug 19, 2013, 11:25am
Subject: Re: Experts: Will I be able to taste a difference between CC1 and Vetrano B2?
 

I've had no problem pulling consistent shots at home with beans from shops I've been too w/ the CC1, quite a few times even better and these shops are using way more expensive machines and grinders including Intel and Gaslight when up in Chicago. However the only bean I've never pulled a good shot with on my machine was Black Cat, went through a couple pounds, had a shop here and even at Intell it still had the weirdest taste of any coffee I've had. Some of those same shops though made incredible shots/coffee, so it really comes down to how good the barista is there that day, one day they pulled some awesome shots of Analog, but like two days before blehhh even after they adjusted it again for replacement shots which we still drank as didn't want to be annoying customers lol.

But as far as consistency at home, once dialed in I rarely have sink shots, I keep a note too of beans/grind setting/dose so when reordering I know right off the bat where to start as the Preciso can take fiddling with the settings, vs larger flat/conicals like the HG-One or K10 etc where you can pretty much leave at a setting for most any bean and adjust only slightly here and there.
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CarloM
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Apr 2013
Posts: 323
Location: Los Angeles
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Vetrano V2B
Grinder: Mazzer Mini-E Type A, SJ...
Drip: Toddy
Posted Mon Aug 19, 2013, 11:40am
Subject: Re: Experts: Will I be able to taste a difference between CC1 and Vetrano B2?
 

Sorry, I realize that *sarcasm* doesn't translate well sometimes on the internet.

While I'm sure the CC1 is a solid entry-level machine, my point was made because I really did doubt that he could pull shots consistently off of the CC1 that places like Intelligentsia could off of their machines. He made a reference about seeing places that used HX machines and/or Stradas using Intelly beans and that his shots were better on a consistent basis.

As others have said, when I "get it right" at home on my Silvia PID, I get it right (though the god shot remains somewhat elusive). But I'm going with the V2B for increased consistency and stability in temperature, pressure and repeatability, as well as steaming power. The videos of the CC1 I've seen show that even my Silvia has more steaming power.

So no need to offer me a V2B for CC1 trade, that post was made in jest.
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germantownrob
Senior Member
germantownrob
Joined: 2 Dec 2007
Posts: 2,150
Location: Philadelphia
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Duetto 3, A Dead Oscar
Grinder: Vario-W, Preciso w/Esatto,...
Drip: Brazen
Roaster: Diedrich IR-1, HT B
Posted Mon Aug 19, 2013, 3:18pm
Subject: Re: Experts: Will I be able to taste a difference between CC1 and Vetrano B2?
 

DeanOK Said:

I am currently using a CC1. I will soon have a new B2. If I use the same coffee, tamping technique, and same grinder, will I notice a taste difference between these two machines?

Posted August 17, 2013 link

My answer is probably not. If the CC1 is delivering 8-10 bar of proper water temp then it is doing what an espresso machine should. Can the slight differences between a vibe pump and a rotary pump be tasted, yes but they are subtle. Is there a difference in taste from an 8 bar shot and a 10 bar shot, yes but subtle for the most part.

If you are not getting very good results from your CC1 then it is either a problem with your machine or a problem with your technique, or both.  If you can't distribute your grinds consistently or tamp consistently then how can a machine designed to deliver 195-205f water under 8-10 bar of pressure be at fault. If the Mano is consistent and the grinder is up to the task then those little differences between machines can be discovered.
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myallawala
Senior Member
myallawala
Joined: 25 Dec 2012
Posts: 86
Location: San Antonio, TX
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Crossland CC1
Grinder: Mazzer Major & Baratza Vario
Vac Pot: Yama Burner
Drip: Hario V60 & Chemex
Roaster: Behmor 1600
Posted Mon Aug 19, 2013, 4:57pm
Subject: Re: Experts: Will I be able to taste a difference between CC1 and Vetrano B2?
 

CarloM Said:

As emradguy says, "with the right barista at the helm".

I've had quite a few "we use Intelligentsia beans" lattes and capps around Los Angeles, most with expensive machines, that were nowhere near as good as the lattes and capps made at an official Intelligentsia Coffee shop.

I'd like to see if myallawala ever compared his shot with the baristas from Intelligentsia (either the Chicago or L.A. shops). If he can truly make better shots than Intelligentsia baristas with his CC1, I'm going to cancel my V2B preorder and just get a CC1!

Posted August 19, 2013 link

I visited an Intelligentsia while I was in Chicago but I was in my really newby phases of coffee. I really couldn't say whether or not I liked a coffee but I do remember that cappa very particularly because it brought one word I really hate using to describe coffee almost instantly to mind.. sour. I can comment though that they were using some SO bean at the time so that was probably it. It took a LONG time for me to start appreciating certain milk based drinks with any kind of bright coffee or just SO beans in general.

I made the mistake of only trying a cappa. I was having so much trouble with espressos at the time that I figured it wasn't worth $3.00 to merely smile and nod while drinking it and not really know if it were any good. I was sure that I could tell if I liked my cappas better or not and it turned out I did like mine better, BUT only sometimes (meaning some of mine were better, but mostly not).. later I found out what weight was carried in weight dosing and using beans suited to cappas or espresso.

I refuse to definitely say mine are always better because I've also tailored my style/technique to suit my tastes. Plus, I've spoken with a few of these baristas and others in town and they too closely follow the "25 seconds and 2 ounces rule" or other "one size fits all" formulas. I can afford to become obsessive at my own station because I have time and control. I don't think all cafes or baristas can afford this with their high volume or uninterested baristas. I bet if I could spend a few hours behind the slayer or strada I could make an espresso better than my CC1 can produce. Much better? No, but better. Those machines have features that the CC1 does not like a rotary pump and pressure profiling. I think that's also to say that the CC1 can compete with more basic commercial machines like Cimbalis or Rancilios.. it has a PID and preinfusion. These two features are huge in my opinion. Sometimes I wonder if upgrading to an evoluzione or something would even be an upgrade if it meant losing preinfusion and temp control. In fact, I think when I upgrade it will have to be to a PID DB. I'm trying to learn to better temp surf a HX but I really like just having a machine that's ready to go..

Just my thoughts. Sorry, I know they're scrambled. I don't like to be definitive but I definitely have my opinions and experience behind a machine (and coffees and roasters). Take it or leave it if it's helpful or not.
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myallawala
Senior Member
myallawala
Joined: 25 Dec 2012
Posts: 86
Location: San Antonio, TX
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Crossland CC1
Grinder: Mazzer Major & Baratza Vario
Vac Pot: Yama Burner
Drip: Hario V60 & Chemex
Roaster: Behmor 1600
Posted Mon Aug 19, 2013, 5:06pm
Subject: Re: Experts: Will I be able to taste a difference between CC1 and Vetrano B2?
 

CarloM Said:

Sorry, I realize that *sarcasm* doesn't translate well sometimes on the internet.

While I'm sure the CC1 is a solid entry-level machine, my point was made because I really did doubt that he could pull shots consistently off of the CC1 that places like Intelligentsia could off of their machines. He made a reference about seeing places that used HX machines and/or Stradas using Intelly beans and that his shots were better on a consistent basis.

As others have said, when I "get it right" at home on my Silvia PID, I get it right (though the god shot remains somewhat elusive). But I'm going with the V2B for increased consistency and stability in temperature, pressure and repeatability, as well as steaming power. The videos of the CC1 I've seen show that even my Silvia has more steaming power.

So no need to offer me a V2B for CC1 trade, that post was made in jest.

Posted August 19, 2013 link

I also just took a look at the 2B.. literally looks like a beefier CC1 in a much more attractive package. It looks like exactly what I want to move on to next short of a GS3 or DT1 since it has preinfusion.

I don't mean to talk up the CC1 but at $700 it has a lot to offer. I have had a few issues that SCG/Bill fixed up pretty quick and for only being in for $700, I'd say I'm a happy camper that will upgrade one day for reasons other than taste.
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CarloM
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Apr 2013
Posts: 323
Location: Los Angeles
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Vetrano V2B
Grinder: Mazzer Mini-E Type A, SJ...
Drip: Toddy
Posted Mon Aug 19, 2013, 5:29pm
Subject: Re: Experts: Will I be able to taste a difference between CC1 and Vetrano B2?
 

You certainly are entitled to your opinions, but if you think the CC1 is just a "beefier V2B in a more attractive package..." let's just say I'll agree to disagree and leave it at that.

There are many, many improvements of the V2B over the CC1, which have nothing to do with simply being beefier. Unless by beefier you mean: a much larger brew boiler, a completely separate and huge steam boiler, dual PID controls separated for both steam and brew boilers, a rotary pump, option for plumb-in, motor positioned on top of pump, etc.

I can definitely get behind comparing apples and apples (SBDU vs SDBU, HX vs HX, and 2B vs 2B) but saying a V2B (or Duetto, or Mini Vivaldi, or R58) is just a beefier CC1...yeah I'll just agree to disagree.

As others have said, there are other factors that can negate the performance of a better machine. But all things being equal, the better machine will get you better brew temp stability, repeatability, etc. Not to mention the steam power difference and the lack of having to wait for steam power, or for the machine to recharge between drinks, or do cooling flushes, etc.

Yes, if you're making only one drink at a time, and it's mostly an espresso drink, you probably will be fine with a dialed in CC1 or Silvia. No need to steam (and watch your espresso cool as you wait for the steam to come). No need to make multiple drinks. You'll be fine with a CC1/Silvia/good SBDU. But if you're always making milk drinks like I am, and you're constantly entertaining friends who want lattes or cappuccinos and you want to reduce the time it takes to make those four drinks from 20 minutes to 5 while maintaining (or increasing) quality, then a really powerful HX or DB machine is the only viable choice.
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DeanOK
Senior Member
DeanOK
Joined: 24 Sep 2012
Posts: 666
Location: OK
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: QM Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Vario W
Posted Mon Aug 19, 2013, 5:39pm
Subject: Re: Experts: Will I be able to taste a difference between CC1 and Vetrano B2?
 

CarloM Said:

let's just say I'll agree to disagree and leave it at that...

Posted August 19, 2013 link

I do agree that there is a wide gap in the features between CC1 and 2B (and a wide gap in the price), but I would love to see the PID that is on the CC1 on a product like the B2. I like the shot timer, and the multiple brew programs that the CC1 has. I will miss them.
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CarloM
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Apr 2013
Posts: 323
Location: Los Angeles
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Vetrano V2B
Grinder: Mazzer Mini-E Type A, SJ...
Drip: Toddy
Posted Mon Aug 19, 2013, 5:53pm
Subject: Re: Experts: Will I be able to taste a difference between CC1 and Vetrano B2?
 

DeanOK Said:

I do agree that there is a wide gap in the features between CC1 and 2B (and a wide gap in the price), but I would love to see the PID that is on the CC1 on a product like the B2. I like the shot timer, and the multiple brew programs that the CC1 has. I will miss them.

Posted August 19, 2013 link

I hear ya, it's kinda like cars. No one car has everything I want. I'd want the luxury feel of an Acura, with the fun to drive aspect of a BMW M3, and the interior appointments of a Lexus and the fuel efficiency of a hybrid. ;)
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