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Experts: Will I be able to taste a difference between CC1 and Vetrano B2?
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jonr
Senior Member


Joined: 25 Jun 2013
Posts: 298
Location: Americas
Expertise: I like coffee
Posted Tue Aug 20, 2013, 11:04am
Subject: Re: Experts: Will I be able to taste a difference between CC1 and Vetrano B2?
 

> Will I be able to taste a difference between CC1 and Vetrano B2?

Yes, you should be able to taste the difference between almost any two models.  Which tastes better?  IMO, that depends on the coffee and the operator.  Once you get to reasonable quality, more expensive may have little correlation (in either direction) to better taste.
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DeanOK
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DeanOK
Joined: 24 Sep 2012
Posts: 690
Location: OK
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: QM Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Vario W
Posted Tue Aug 20, 2013, 5:27pm
Subject: Re: Experts: Will I be able to taste a difference between CC1 and Vetrano B2?
 

CarloM Said:

Completely agree. For me, I know that it takes about 20-25 seconds to steam 6 oz of milk. So if I start the shot and then start steaming...

Posted August 19, 2013 link

Is that on a CC1? It takes me about 1:50 to steam 180 grams of milk  on my CC1, which I think is about 6oz.  Starting with cold milk and steaming to 150F.
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CarloM
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Apr 2013
Posts: 323
Location: Los Angeles
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Vetrano V2B
Grinder: Mazzer Mini-E Type A, SJ...
Drip: Toddy
Posted Tue Aug 20, 2013, 6:12pm
Subject: Re: Experts: Will I be able to taste a difference between CC1 and Vetrano B2?
 

DeanOK Said:

Is that on a CC1? It takes me about 1:50 to steam 180 grams of milk  on my CC1, which I think is about 6oz.  Starting with cold milk and steaming to 150F.

Posted August 20, 2013 link

No, my Rancilio Silvia PID. Now 25 seconds is once I start steaming. It takes about 45-60 seconds for the Silvia to get to steaming temperature after I've pulled the shot. So about 1:15-1:30 after I've pulled the shot I add the milk. But the actual steaming takes only 25 seconds.

That 1:30 is one of the many reasons I'm upgrading to a dual boiler.
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DeanOK
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DeanOK
Joined: 24 Sep 2012
Posts: 690
Location: OK
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: QM Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Vario W
Posted Tue Aug 20, 2013, 6:16pm
Subject: Re: Experts: Will I be able to taste a difference between CC1 and Vetrano B2?
 

CarloM Said:

No, my Rancilio Silvia PID. Now 25 seconds is once I start steaming. It takes about 45-60 seconds for the Silvia to get to steaming temperature after I've pulled the shot. So about 1:15-1:30 after I've pulled the shot I add the milk. But the actual steaming takes only 25 seconds.

That 1:30 is one of the many reasons I'm upgrading to a dual boiler.

Posted August 20, 2013 link

That is still a lot better than the CC1. My time is steaming time. It seems to be a nice dry steam though.

I am not sure I would want one too much faster than 20 or 25 seconds. Seems like with a small amount of milk you wouldn't have time to create good microfoam before it was so hot you had to quit.
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CarloM
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Joined: 1 Apr 2013
Posts: 323
Location: Los Angeles
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Vetrano V2B
Grinder: Mazzer Mini-E Type A, SJ...
Drip: Toddy
Posted Tue Aug 20, 2013, 6:35pm
Subject: Re: Experts: Will I be able to taste a difference between CC1 and Vetrano B2?
 

DeanOK Said:

That is still a lot better than the CC1. My time is steaming time. It seems to be a nice dry steam though.

I am not sure I would want one too much faster than 20 or 25 seconds. Seems like with a small amount of milk you wouldn't have time to create good microfoam before it was so hot you had to quit.

Posted August 20, 2013 link

Exactly right. It's powerful but with a single-hole tip, I really have to be careful and work the milk to get latte-art microfoam. I can get it some of the time but I rarely get latte-art quality microfoam--the good kind of foam, which gives the drink an airier/lighter mouthfeel. I also have to bleed the Silvia first or else I'll shoot 2oz of water into the milk.

I think the four hole tip of the V2B, coupled with powerful dry steam, will have me making the drinks I want. As much as I think my espresso shot will improve (over time) with the V2B, it's the milk steaming part that I think will increase in quality as much, if not more, than the espresso part. Couple that with not having to have your espresso sit for 90 seconds while waiting for milk...well going to a dual boiler was a no-brainer. It was just a matter of which one. I was deciding between the Duetto and MV/Dream T until the V2B came along.

Hopefully this will prove to be fortuitous timing. I'm a big movie fan and in 1997 I was all set to go into laserdisc when...DVD arrived (which of course was superior to LD). I don't know if the V2B will be superior to either the Spaz or Alex, but if it gives me great espresso and latte art, then it's all good. :)
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DeanOK
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DeanOK
Joined: 24 Sep 2012
Posts: 690
Location: OK
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: QM Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Vario W
Posted Tue Aug 20, 2013, 7:03pm
Subject: Re: Experts: Will I be able to taste a difference between CC1 and Vetrano B2?
 

CarloM Said:

Exactly right.

Posted August 20, 2013 link

The more I think about it, the more I think 45 seconds is a good number for 6 oz on a home machine. I realize in a commercial situation they probably steam a lot more than 6 oz at a time.... but I almost always steam 6 oz of milk. It would be nice if they had a selection of tips that would allow you to steam up to 12oz  or 18 oz of milk and still have a tip that would slow down production on 6 oz of milk.  If I had to steam in 15 or 20 seconds that would be way too fast for me.
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CarloM
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Apr 2013
Posts: 323
Location: Los Angeles
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Vetrano V2B
Grinder: Mazzer Mini-E Type A, SJ...
Drip: Toddy
Posted Tue Aug 20, 2013, 8:45pm
Subject: Re: Experts: Will I be able to taste a difference between CC1 and Vetrano B2?
 

DeanOK Said:

The more I think about it, the more I think 45 seconds is a good number for 6 oz on a home machine. I realize in a commercial situation they probably steam a lot more than 6 oz at a time.... but I almost always steam 6 oz of milk. It would be nice if they had a selection of tips that would allow you to steam up to 12oz  or 18 oz of milk and still have a tip that would slow down production on 6 oz of milk.  If I had to steam in 15 or 20 seconds that would be way too fast for me.

Posted August 20, 2013 link

Dean, I may be proven wrong when I get my V2B, but I have been observing for several months now the places that get the best microfoam near me (two different Intelligentsias, Coffee Tomo, Augie's, two different Cafe Luxxe, Portola Coffee Lab). I'm less concerned over the time it takes them to steam, and am focusing on the silky, airy microfoam that is consistent throughout the whole drink. And while nice latte art is a plus, the slightly airy-yet-still-creamy mouthfeel of a drink made with good microfoam is of utmost importance to me. That's achieved by having only the tiniest of bubbles spread out nearly evenly throughout the milk (no separation).

All places steamed lattes one-at-a-time, taking between 15-25 seconds. All places really didn't struggle with creating microfoam like those of us with either weak steaming, or single-hole tip machines do in terms of having to "work" the milk. All places had four-hole tips (I've asked when I couldn't visually confirm). I'm convinced that good microfoam is much easier with powerful, dry steam from a four-hole tip than it is for those of us who own Silvias, CC1s, etc. None of them put as much effort in doing the "stretching, then texturing, then getting the swirl" dance that we are familiar with.

I'm hoping the V2B can come relatively close to the dry, powerful steam these places get out of their commercial machines.
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Zevi
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Joined: 28 Mar 2013
Posts: 118
Location: Ann Arbor
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Posted Wed Aug 21, 2013, 7:25am
Subject: Re: Experts: Will I be able to taste a difference between CC1 and Vetrano B2?
 

DeanOK Said:

The more I think about it, the more I think 45 seconds is a good number for 6 oz on a home machine. I realize in a commercial situation they probably steam a lot more than 6 oz at a time.... but I almost always steam 6 oz of milk. It would be nice if they had a selection of tips that would allow you to steam up to 12oz  or 18 oz of milk and still have a tip that would slow down production on 6 oz of milk.  If I had to steam in 15 or 20 seconds that would be way too fast for me.

Posted August 20, 2013 link

I was wondering about that too. For smaller amount of milk where the steam might be too powerful and hard to control -- what if we open the steam valve only partially? Will that solve it, or make the problem worse? (too much heat but not enough air to create the microfoam?)
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Coffeenoobie
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Coffeenoobie
Joined: 11 Dec 2011
Posts: 3,031
Location: PNW
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: N S Oscar
Grinder: K30 & Vario W
Posted Wed Aug 21, 2013, 8:39am
Subject: Re: Experts: Will I be able to taste a difference between CC1 and Vetrano B2?
 

Hopefully you can tell us after you get the machine.  I expect you will see less difference than you think.  And it will take a while to master the new machine. (no matter what type you get, you have to learn it)

 
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CarloM
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Apr 2013
Posts: 323
Location: Los Angeles
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Vetrano V2B
Grinder: Mazzer Mini-E Type A, SJ...
Drip: Toddy
Posted Wed Aug 21, 2013, 9:09am
Subject: Re: Experts: Will I be able to taste a difference between CC1 and Vetrano B2?
 

Zevi Said:

I was wondering about that too. For smaller amount of milk where the steam might be too powerful and hard to control -- what if we open the steam valve only partially? Will that solve it, or make the problem worse? (too much heat but not enough air to create the microfoam?)

Posted August 21, 2013 link

Funny story: about a week ago I was at Coffee Tomo chatting up the head barista, whom I've gotten to know over the years. He was training a new employee on how to steam milk. They have a really awesome La Marzocco there, the older model with the artwork on the oval brew buttons. This guy was learning to steam milk and create latte art. Obviously he was a bit overwhelmed by the steam power of the LM (which will likely prove to be greater than our V2Bs will). This trainee kept turning the knob halfway and struggling with the texturing. Finally on like the third attempt, the head barista walks over when the trainee turns the steam knob halfway, grabs the knob and gives it a theatrical full turn, releasing all the steam power (tip was already in the milk), and shows the guy how to do it. Perfect latte art.

So that showed me that if you have powerful, dry steam which a four-hole tip partially mitigates by dividing and dispersing the steam in four different directions, you shouldn't have "too much" power to do good microfoam.

Of course all this right now is theory. When I get my V2B you can bet that this forum will be flooded with my annoying helpful posts. :D
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