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Experts: Will I be able to taste a difference between CC1 and Vetrano B2?
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Discussions > Espresso > Machines > Experts: Will I...  
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CMIN
Senior Member


Joined: 14 Jun 2012
Posts: 1,362
Location: South FL
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Crossland CC1
Grinder: Baratza Preciso
Posted Mon Aug 19, 2013, 6:54pm
Subject: Re: Experts: Will I be able to taste a difference between CC1 and Vetrano B2?
 

CarloM Said:

Yes, if you're making only one drink at a time, and it's mostly an espresso drink, you probably will be fine with a dialed in CC1 or Silvia. No need to steam (and watch your espresso cool as you wait for the steam to come). No need to make multiple drinks. You'll be fine with a CC1/Silvia/good SBDU. But if you're always making milk drinks like I am, and you're constantly entertaining friends who want lattes or cappuccinos and you want to reduce the time it takes to make those four drinks from 20 minutes to 5 while maintaining (or increasing) quality, then a really powerful HX or DB machine is the only viable choice.

Posted August 19, 2013 link

CC1 is actually pretty quick, SCG did a test with a couple machines and it was only like
a minute and half or something like that behind an Oscar for 4 milk drinks, Silvia was another 7-10 min on top of that. I've made drinks and shots at house for groups.

But yeh I don't consider machines like the B2 just beefier versions of the CC1 as that could apply to any machine.Your getting large true dual boilers or h/x, heavy ass construction ( most in that class are like 60-70lbs), and consistancy with shot after shot and milk drink as fast as you can prep. CC1 pretty much kicks the other sb machines in its class and a baragain for what it offers, but its no big dual boiler or h/x.

B2 has me interested too.

DeanOK Said:

I do agree that there is a wide gap in the features between CC1 and 2B (and a wide gap in the price), but I would love to see the PID that is on the CC1 on a product like the B2. I like the shot timer, and the multiple brew programs that the CC1 has. I will miss them.

Posted August 19, 2013 link

No doubt there, although I always try other beans there's usually 3 I stick with and I have the machine dialed 1/2/3 for each one, so just a quick switch and I've got the temps, preinfusion and dwell time I prefer for each. And yeh that shot time kicks ass, that is the one feature I wish was on others, no fiddling with phones or timers. Like the CC1 readout built into the B2 would kick ass.
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myallawala
Senior Member
myallawala
Joined: 25 Dec 2012
Posts: 86
Location: San Antonio, TX
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Crossland CC1
Grinder: Mazzer Major & Baratza Vario
Vac Pot: Yama Burner
Drip: Hario V60 & Chemex
Roaster: Behmor 1600
Posted Mon Aug 19, 2013, 7:08pm
Subject: Re: Experts: Will I be able to taste a difference between CC1 and Vetrano B2?
 

CarloM Said:

You certainly are entitled to your opinions, but if you think the CC1 is just a "beefier V2B in a more attractive package..." let's just say I'll agree to disagree and leave it at that.

There are many, many improvements of the V2B over the CC1, which have nothing to do with simply being beefier. Unless by beefier you mean: a much larger brew boiler, a completely separate and huge steam boiler, dual PID controls separated for both steam and brew boilers, a rotary pump, option for plumb-in, motor positioned on top of pump, etc.

I can definitely get behind comparing apples and apples (SBDU vs SDBU, HX vs HX, and 2B vs 2B) but saying a V2B (or Duetto, or Mini Vivaldi, or R58) is just a beefier CC1...yeah I'll just agree to disagree.

As others have said, there are other factors that can negate the performance of a better machine. But all things being equal, the better machine will get you better brew temp stability, repeatability, etc. Not to mention the steam power difference and the lack of having to wait for steam power, or for the machine to recharge between drinks, or do cooling flushes, etc.

Yes, if you're making only one drink at a time, and it's mostly an espresso drink, you probably will be fine with a dialed in CC1 or Silvia. No need to steam (and watch your espresso cool as you wait for the steam to come). No need to make multiple drinks. You'll be fine with a CC1/Silvia/good SBDU. But if you're always making milk drinks like I am, and you're constantly entertaining friends who want lattes or cappuccinos and you want to reduce the time it takes to make those four drinks from 20 minutes to 5 while maintaining (or increasing) quality, then a really powerful HX or DB machine is the only viable choice.

Posted August 19, 2013 link

Did you mean to say "but if you think the V2B is just a "beefier CC1 in a more attractive package..."" instead of "but if you think the CC1 is just a "beefier V2B in a more attractive package..."" because I meant I think the V2B is a beefier CC1 (the former). I didn't mean to devalue the V2B. I actually meant that in a good way. I was misunderstood. Sorry if it read that way.

I stand by what I said though. How is it not a beefier CC1? It is a beefier CC1 for exactly the reasons you listed. If you upgraded every feature of the CC1, it would be the V2B. The V2B has a better boiler, a better pump, a better housing, a better group, a better steam boiler (thermoblock on CC1), better capacity, etc. etc...

The CC1 basically has a seperate and PID controlled steam boiler.. it's a thermoblock with a non accessible control. What's the difference? Little in my opinion. Yes, it's more powerful, but isn't that to be expected? Read that beefier.

The larger brew boiler.. more consistency and capacity.. read that beefier.

Rotary pump.. longevity and noise.. read that beefier (and luxurious).

I don't quite follow what you're refuting about what I said. If anything it sounds more like you're agreeing with me.

I also agree with you about the greater machine having greater capacity, convenience, and multi-tasking capacity. I outlined these items in my previous posts, did I not?

Once again, in terms of TASTE.. the CC1 doesn't fall short. And I think that's the point of this thread, hence the title.

Edit: Re-reading what you posted I also have to acknowledge that the thermoblock and separate steam boiler, albeit serving generally the same purpose, one (the thermoblock) must charge/recharge and isn't ready on demand. I'll give the V2B and other PID DB that much credit in not merely being beefier. But I'm hard pressed to see how else it is not just beefier (or otherwise luxurious, but I don't think that's what this discussion is about).
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DeanOK
Senior Member
DeanOK
Joined: 24 Sep 2012
Posts: 666
Location: OK
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: QM Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Vario W
Posted Mon Aug 19, 2013, 7:29pm
Subject: Re: Experts: Will I be able to taste a difference between CC1 and Vetrano B2?
 

CMIN Said:

No doubt there, although I always try other beans there's usually 3 I stick with and I have the machine dialed 1/2/3 for each one, so just a quick switch and I've got the temps, preinfusion and dwell time I prefer for each. And yeh that shot time kicks ass, that is the one feature I wish was on others, no fiddling with phones or timers. Like the CC1 readout built into the B2 would kick ass.

Posted August 19, 2013 link

I am looking forward to the pre infusion that is provided by the E61 design. I know it not adjustable, but I think it will be smoother than kicking on a pump for X amount of time to achieve the pre infusion. A lot of people talk down the shot timer, but those are people that assume you are using the timer as the gospel as to how long the shot should be. The way I set mine up, is I set the maximum time I know I want the pump to run... this is a number where I know if I let it run any longer, its going to taste like crap... and then I watch my shot yield on a scale while I am watching the timer. I shoot for 32 -34 grams in about 28 seconds after first drip with the coffee I am currently using. I rarely let the shot run until the end of the timer. I just shut the pump off by pushing the button when I see yield and time parameters meet what I think is the best mix. Yes I used to watch for blonding, but using this method blonding is never an issue.

Sorry... I guess I have gotten off topic again... with that said, I was hoping CCS would announce that the V2B machines had arrived... but didn't see anything on their Facebook page.
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CarloM
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Apr 2013
Posts: 323
Location: Los Angeles
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Vetrano V2B
Grinder: Mazzer Mini-E Type A, SJ...
Drip: Toddy
Posted Mon Aug 19, 2013, 8:49pm
Subject: Re: Experts: Will I be able to taste a difference between CC1 and Vetrano B2?
 

myallawala - by your logic, a 3 group Strada, 3 group Synesso and 3 group Slayer are all "beefier" CC1s. Let's just drop this because you're resorting to semantics in order to defend your post, which I completely disagree with. Dual Boilers are in a different class than the CC1/Silvia line. Commercial machines are in a different class than prosumer dual boilers. In my view a commercial Synesso is not just a beefier V2B (which it would be by your reasoning).

Dean - I think you and I will have a lot of learning with the V2B when it arrives. I'm coming from a Silvia PID, you're coming from a CC1. Even though we're stepping up into a new class of machine, there will be some things you miss, and perhaps initially you may not see immediate shot improvement. But after you dial the V2B, I can't imagine you'll be doing anything less than pulling better shots, repeatedly.

Again, if you only make one drink at a time, mostly espresso with no milk, and you only do it once or twice a day, the V2B may not be worth it. But if you're making quite a few drinks in a row, or you like cappuccinos and lattes, and.or like to make latte art, the V2B should absolutely justify its value.
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DeanOK
Senior Member
DeanOK
Joined: 24 Sep 2012
Posts: 666
Location: OK
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: QM Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Vario W
Posted Mon Aug 19, 2013, 9:00pm
Subject: Re: Experts: Will I be able to taste a difference between CC1 and Vetrano B2?
 

CarloM Said:

Dean - I think you and I will have a lot of learning with the V2B when it arrives. I'm coming from a Silvia PID, you're coming from a CC1. Even though we're stepping up into a new class of machine, there will be some things you miss, and perhaps initially you may not see immediate shot improvement. But after you dial the V2B, I can't imagine you'll be doing anything less than pulling better shots, repeatedly.

Posted August 19, 2013 link

You know, it is funny what you get used to. I have already been practicing using my kitchen timer to time my shots Instead of the cc 1. I have developed a system that involves timing the shot and measuring the yield at the same time. I imagine I will stick with it until it becomes so routine for me I do not even need to think about.
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CarloM
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Apr 2013
Posts: 323
Location: Los Angeles
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Vetrano V2B
Grinder: Mazzer Mini-E Type A, SJ...
Drip: Toddy
Posted Mon Aug 19, 2013, 9:24pm
Subject: Re: Experts: Will I be able to taste a difference between CC1 and Vetrano B2?
 

DeanOK Said:

You know, it is funny what you get used to. I have already been practicing using my kitchen timer to time my shots Instead of the cc 1. I have developed a system that involves timing the shot and measuring the yield at the same time. I imagine I will stick with it until it becomes so routine for me I do not even need to think about.

Posted August 19, 2013 link

Completely agree. For me, I know that it takes about 20-25 seconds to steam 6 oz of milk. So if I start the shot and then start steaming...

And to me, I try to time for a 22-25 second shot, but if it's a little longer, no big deal. So I think ballparking the shot between the time it takes to steam the milk, coupled with visual confirmation (I use the same cups for my drinks and I know what 2oz looks like) should serve me well.
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myallawala
Senior Member
myallawala
Joined: 25 Dec 2012
Posts: 86
Location: San Antonio, TX
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Crossland CC1
Grinder: Mazzer Major & Baratza Vario
Vac Pot: Yama Burner
Drip: Hario V60 & Chemex
Roaster: Behmor 1600
Posted Mon Aug 19, 2013, 9:49pm
Subject: Re: Experts: Will I be able to taste a difference between CC1 and Vetrano B2?
 

CarloM Said:

myallawala - by your logic, a 3 group Strada, 3 group Synesso and 3 group Slayer are all "beefier" CC1s. Let's just drop this because you're resorting to semantics in order to defend your post, which I completely disagree with. Dual Boilers are in a different class than the CC1/Silvia line. Commercial machines are in a different class than prosumer dual boilers. In my view a commercial Synesso is not just a beefier V2B (which it would be by your reasoning).

Posted August 19, 2013 link

You're right. We're all entitled to our opinions and I completely disagree with yours too.

I don't think the CC1 and Silvia are in the same class either. Don't twist and extend my logic if you can't even see my point. I'm not bashing or de-valuing these machines, I'm just giving my perspective. And as I said, take it or leave it. Don't know why I feel like you're trying to discredit and attack what I have to say.

I'm also not quite following what you've come here to do.. I came to be helpful. It looks like so far you've come to be sarcastic, discrediting, and generally rude.

I'm done here, because just like you, I don't know everything about coffee. I've merely shared my experiences and opinions and thought I was in an interesting position as a CC1 owner and worker in the coffee industry to offer a response.

Hope what I had to say is helpful OP.
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CarloM
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Apr 2013
Posts: 323
Location: Los Angeles
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Vetrano V2B
Grinder: Mazzer Mini-E Type A, SJ...
Drip: Toddy
Posted Mon Aug 19, 2013, 11:59pm
Subject: Re: Experts: Will I be able to taste a difference between CC1 and Vetrano B2?
 

Sorry if you feel hurt, but I honestly don't see what your issue is. You have a viewpoint. I have the opposite. You say you came to be helpful. Check out this and V2B thread, I came to do the same. Dean and I have exchanged advice and information for quite some time now (along with JaniceAnn, cuznvin, DavecUK, etc.).

And it's ironic that you consider the V2B just a "beefier" CC1--a dual boiler $2150 machine compared to a single boiler $700 machine. But you don't consider the CC1 and Silvia PID in the same class (I think they are, you misread it as me trying to put words in your mouth), a $700 vs. $600. It's not because you own the CC1, that you would find it comparable with a V2B but not a Silvia? Look I get you love your machine. And I believe you make very good espresso on it. I do on my Silvia.

But the OP came asking if he'd taste a difference in cup between a CC1 and V2B. Logic says if all other factors (mano, grind, bean) are optimized, then probably the answer is yes due to the superior machine, for the reasons we stated earlier. But you came in stating that with your CC1 you make better tasting espresso than just about every coffeehouse you've been to, using Slayers, etc. including Intelligentsia. Then when I mention how I may be a bit skeptical of that claim [and hey I could be wrong, I could be talking to the next WBC champion], you say it's just your opinion and it's tailored to your taste. So that's not really helpful to the OP because he's neither you nor does he have your taste.

Seriously, these Stradas and Slayers cost tens of thousands of dollars. If a CC1 were all that were needed to make great espresso, then coffeehouses could save a ton of money by lining up ten CC1s in a row (to eliminate waiting for recharging) for $7000 rather than spend $10,000 or more per Strada/Linea/Slayer/Synesso station. They'd save money on maintenance too because for what they pay for a service contract, they could just throw away a CC1 that malfunctions and buy a new one.
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noramardare
Senior Member


Joined: 10 Apr 2013
Posts: 1
Location: Bucuresti
Expertise: I like coffee

Posted Tue Aug 20, 2013, 1:35am
Subject: Re: Experts: Will I be able to taste a difference between CC1 and Vetrano B2?
 

I like coffee very much, but these machines cost tens of thousands of dollars :( I'd like something more cheaper...

organizare evenimente corporate orice tema
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calblacksmith
Moderator
calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 7,722
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Tue Aug 20, 2013, 5:49am
Subject: Re: Experts: Will I be able to taste a difference between CC1 and Vetrano B2?
 

Espresso is not a game for "on the cheep", not when quality is your goal. You don't need to spend tens of thousands but you DO need to spend something. A reasonable starter setup, new in the boxes, from retail sellers can easily run $750. If that is too rich for you, consider used equipment at about half the price.

ON a different point,

A beefed up CC1, well I guess a full, forced air, air-conditioning system is just a beefed up bowl of ice and a fan. The results are a lot different though.

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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