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Breville has a new Dual Boiler/Manual/Auto+ grinder espresso machine.
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Discussions > Espresso > Machines > Breville has a...  
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Iluvdabean
Senior Member
Iluvdabean
Joined: 7 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,259
Location: Kentucky
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Nuova Era Cuadra/Gaggia...
Grinder: Baratza Preciso/K-A Pro...
Drip: Bonavita BV 1800 TH
Roaster: Nesco 1010/Behmor 1600
Posted Sat Aug 24, 2013, 10:34am
Subject: Re: Breville has a new Dual Boiler/Manual/Auto+ grinder espresso machine.
 

I dont think Breville is really concerned with anything more than gaining market share really. They change approaches and designs haphazardly without the slightest concern of longterm effect.
For example a two piece thermoblock with a gasket to a thing called a thermocoil. They have cute little market ploys like a bobber that tells you to empty the water tray and
a magnetic hanging tamper and tool tray. So I cant help but see them as a company on a forward thinking beta test-quest using JohnQ public as the guinea pigs and safe guarding it with a generous unheard of replacement policy.
Many of the people at BDB are on third machines! WHAT,YOUR THIRD MACHINE!!! YOUR KIDDING ME RIGHT!!!! Then to cut cost they are constructed in China. So as a consumer I feel we have a right to ask hard questions? Things like reliability and build quality
are major concerns in this regard. I appreciate your zeal and enthusiasm but where is Brevilles track record? Can you honestly tell me they have one? I say buyer beware or at least understand what your getting into.

I agree with this statement of yours entirely.

"You folks are getting philosophical, which in my view is absolutely the right thing.  Iluvdabean, may I pick on you?  :)  Regarding the 800, did you ever think back and consider that Breville may have saved you from an even worse product -- I know, hard to imagine, but possible -- than the 800?  Some other product that was even cheaper and more lousy?  It was your belief at the time that a good espresso machine could be cheap and weigh less than 100 pounds.  It was Breville's decision to play in that "market" but it was your decision to be that market"

It was my fault in buying a Breville and believe me they saved me from buying another Breville
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lowellw2
Senior Member


Joined: 4 Apr 2010
Posts: 42
Location: Austin TX
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Breville BES900XL
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Posted Sat Aug 24, 2013, 1:38pm
Subject: Re: Breville has a new Dual Boiler/Manual/Auto+ grinder espresso machine.
 

I bought a Breville 840XL or something like that after going through some Nespresso units (talk about using JohnQ for testing ) and made a few decent shots.  They were certainly above the Nespresso stuff.  There was eenough improvement that i got interested in still more improvement in taste and consistency and got a Vivaldi Mini.  Made a heck of a lot more decent shots.  After a while I decided to try the Breville DB and am making still more decent shots.  One BDB machine went back because the brew pressure was off ( early production problem ) maybe due to China assembly - maybe not.  In any event replacement machine is also made in China and it performs more consistently than the Mini ( however, this may be a result of me getting more consistent ). In any event I can consistently pull a pretty decent shot now on a Breville DB. Going back to a more philosophical thought, this espresso thing is a little like life in that's its a journey.  Some good some bad along the way, but hopefully we all get wiser and improve.  While I would not go back to the 840XL, I would not eliminate it on a recommended list to a friend beginning the journey with little to invest.  The newer 920XL may prove to be a decent alternative to $3,000+ full autos.  It's amore  niche market item from my perspective. Time will tell how it performs.  The new 980XL with a rotary pump, easy access to descale and further refinement over the BDB may prove to be another step down the road for me. But then, maybe after the few problems with the Vivaldi Dream are resolved, I'll try Italian assembly and engineering again. Of course, I wouldn't have the bobber or the magnet to hold the tamper or a tool tray.  I would at least still have the built in timers though.
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MJW
Senior Member


Joined: 25 Jul 2012
Posts: 179
Location: Silicon Valley
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Sat Aug 24, 2013, 1:52pm
Subject: Re: Breville has a new Dual Boiler/Manual/Auto+ grinder espresso machine.
 

Iluvdabean, I think you bring up important factors and have strong points.  I strongly believe that most human beings want to be good, to contribute, to make something beautiful.  They want to be part of a winning, good, enterprise.  But often they find themselves in a community or system or society that somehow trains them to be otherwise.  And often big corporations are exactly that kind of environment.  Actually some people at the corporations are not the most able folks and are a bit desperate and willing to do anything -- even deceive others -- just to get by and survive, and receive a paycheck and not be labeled a failure.  There are bad people.  But mostly I think it's fair to say that corporations don't really know what they want and are made of a loose collection of goals and ideas.  You'll see them doing strange things, like an amoeba.

I don't mean to ignore your points concerning Breville in particular.  But, I would like to generalize and focus on the bigger picture: if it weren't Breville it would be someone else.  Krups maybe.  I mean, as long as there is a belief out there, a belief that you and I once had but no longer have, that a working espresso machine could be as inexpensive as $200 (or whatever we thought it was, I'm picking a number that's a little too low), some company will move in to serve that conceit, that belief.  Do you see what I mean?  Except for companies like Olympia Express, who scoff at the notion of listening to customers.

In the language of the marketing professionals, there is a market opportunity.  Made of people who for some reason insist that $201 is too expensive for an "espresso" machine.  How to serve that market?  What can you deliver, what will they buy?  Well the answer is, garbage.  They'll buy garbage.  They'll buy a $20 electric kettle made out of plastic, get mad when it breaks down, and expect a full warranty and replacement!  All for $20.  In some ways it may actually be good for them to get a slap in the face.  Maybe tough love works.  I don't really know, but if it is, then maybe everything is already as it should be?  Maybe everything is already perfect and we just didn't realize?

Human beings are wonderful creatures but they can also be stubborn, ignorant, and will act against their own self interest.  Most of these people are active participants in their own unhappiness.  I would suggest that the world out there is something that you by yourself cannot control and probably can't influence very much.  But your own thinking and decision-making -- how you navigate the world -- you do have quite a bit of control over.  What can I do to avoid the problem, how can I act to make things go better?  That way leads to a path of success.  OK, qualified success, 'cause there's still a lot of bad stuff going on.

Breville gives consumers choices.  They make the 800 and the 900.  We can choose.  Or we can choose to buy Krups.  There are many companies like Breville and Krups and Hamilton Beach and they're all the same I think you'll readily agree.  That's not a coincidence.  They're all operating the same way because they all interpret their environment the same way.

Or we can choose a boutique brand, such as Olympia Express (they're just the extreme, that's why I mention them).  Or we can choose something in between, like Rancillio.  Something with reasonable build quality, and reasonably priced.  There are all kinds of companies with all kinds of philosophies (or non-philosophies) but what I would suggest is that the same company, the same brand can produce a surprising range of products and quality levels.  If you want to, you can try to pick the good ones out of the bad ones.

If anything I say there is offensive or presumptuous I will readily retract it.  Sometimes I say "you" when I mean "everybody".  Let me know and I will quickly apologize and fix it!
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MJW
Senior Member


Joined: 25 Jul 2012
Posts: 179
Location: Silicon Valley
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Sat Aug 24, 2013, 2:42pm
Subject: Re: Breville has a new Dual Boiler/Manual/Auto+ grinder espresso machine.
 

Iluvdabean Said:

I dont think Breville is really concerned with anything more than gaining market share really.

Posted August 24, 2013 link

Yes.  They are not Apple or BMW, who refuse to make a bad product.  I hesitate to speak up, but it's possible the two-piece thermoblock leaks were exacerbated by hard water and it's possible that that caught Breville and the other mfrs by surprise as much as it did the consumer.

Iluvdabean Said:

So I cant help but see them as a company on a forward thinking beta test-quest using JohnQ public as the guinea pigs and safe guarding it with a generous unheard of replacement policy.
Many of the people at BDB are on third machines!

Posted August 24, 2013 link

Some are on their third machine, but don't you think this is partly explained by Breville's aggressive replacement program?  They've put the word out to their front line to replace it for any reason.  Whereas, boutique sellers do a little diagnosis before asking for the whole thing to be returned.  It's Breville's choice to ship machines around unnecessarily, wastefully actually, but that's not the same thing as knowing the true defect rate or the importance of the defect.

I don't intend to be dismissive of problems that 900 owners have had.  And Iluvdabean, if you know or have a sense of the actual statistics then OK.  I'm willing to be educated.

The OPV thing was a trivial adjustment, a turn of a screw.  But the screw was inside the box and Breville chooses to keep its machines closed.  That's an important factor when deciding what to buy.  But it's different from reliability, a lot of espresso machine models have been delivered with OPVs set too high, Italian and otherwise.  If they just send you a screwdriver does that mean it's not a defect?

Build quality and reliability are absolutely the issue, that's true.  But, it's tough to come up with real defect rates, and what the defects cost to repair (or would cost, out of warranty), out of service time, and whatever else is important to the owners.
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Iluvdabean
Senior Member
Iluvdabean
Joined: 7 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,259
Location: Kentucky
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Nuova Era Cuadra/Gaggia...
Grinder: Baratza Preciso/K-A Pro...
Drip: Bonavita BV 1800 TH
Roaster: Nesco 1010/Behmor 1600
Posted Sat Aug 24, 2013, 5:28pm
Subject: Re: Breville has a new Dual Boiler/Manual/Auto+ grinder espresso machine.
 

MJW I used to love endless debates about coffee, then one afternoon I entered the holodeck after a particularly hard day of Romulan issues ( its classified with Starfleet) .I punched in the year 1895 Milan Italy
and was at the birth of Achillies Gaggia. That forever changed my life. We actually became friends and over the many years Ive become quite fond of him. Without boring you of the many long conversations
about coffee,especially espresso we had suffice it to say he warned of such times. See to him it was all about the bean,hence my name. I wish I could get a lock on your coordinates because i would transport you
to my ship and we could use our modern technology to visit him.Hes a kick in the pants really. Our ship hasnt been able to locate you and we are supposing you may be a Breville virus replicating itself like the Borg.
Until we can confirm this we arent taking the risk of infecting the ship with this technology. I do know that Achilles loved simplicity and detested complex thinking about machines that were marvels of human ingenuity yet lacked
a mechanical operational base lending itself to reliability. I have often been tempted to tell him about Breville but every time we sit in a cafe he frequents in Milan and yes even works at we just enjoy the coffee.
I have ordered our systems to provide you the data you requested on Breville machine failures but it seems they are behind a cloaking device of some sort.

MJW I hope this makes you laugh. To the moderators please dont ban me for making light of this serious topic but I am delirious. See we are moving to Kentucky and for the last two weeks my wife ( yeah the writer )
has been subjecting us to her new ROKU device and weve gone through 71 episodes of Voyager. Everyday its moving plans and boxes full of memories. MJW on a serious note dont follow a machine follow the bean.
The beans sheep hear its voice and they go in and they go out of pasture with green felids of pleasure. I say here here and enjoy your machine.
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CMIN
Senior Member


Joined: 14 Jun 2012
Posts: 1,362
Location: South FL
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Crossland CC1
Grinder: Baratza Preciso
Posted Sat Aug 24, 2013, 5:29pm
Subject: Re: Breville has a new Dual Boiler/Manual/Auto+ grinder espresso machine.
 

I'll be honest the multiple dual boiler Breville owners is not like they were broke down lemon machines, Breville has an insane replacement program, one little minor thing that can be fixed by yourself in seconds or minutes at home and they'll replace your machine. The only one I can think of on here that had a really odd experience is the guy that went through 4 machines I think with the same electrical issue, and nobody not even Breville or electricians could figure out, just something with the electrical in that house did not play well with the machine electronics. But many on here would love to have Brevilles replacement program from someone like Gaggia, Rancillio, Rocket etc (heck remember when Rocket had a ton of quality complaints from machines being shipped when the R58 came out and the pain in the butt warranty/replacement process people had to go through, or try to fix themselves). And no there aren't a ton on "3+ machines", just look on this board or hb, or au forum, very few...most on second b/c of things like OPV which is adjusted in seconds but Breville was willing to replace a whole machine for that, or a loose gasket in the head that again takes second to replace or adjust but Breville replaced the whole machine. So it's not like people got problem lemon machines. Sure some had more teething problems no doubt, but just look on these or other forums, plenty had teething problems with $$$ big name companies, even the GS3 has had quite a few quality issues. And yeh there are some that can work on their own machines, but not everyone, I mean just look on here how people can't figure out how to adjust or fix certain things internally and need help. I know a few Dual Boiler owners, nobody had had any issues, buds had two for 2 years, 1 needed the OPV adjusted that he did himself vs sending off for a new machine. Same guy that I told to look at a Gaggia Classic originally, of which his first Classic was dead on arrival, and replacement leaked, had pressure issues even after adjusting OPV, and just didn't work right... retailer was shocked twice in a row but hey it happens, got his money back and purchased two dual boiler through them, 1 for home and then the other for home when he brought the other one into the office and that one is literally used non stop between him and his employees (trained his secretary how to grind, dose, tamp etc hahaha).

Now I don't care for Brevilles thermoblock machines at all, but they did a great job on the Dual Boiler, and the fact that the new model could be had with a rotary pump and ability to descale, that's a pretty nice thing for coffeegeeks like us, I mean really the only negative thing about the current Dual Boiler is the lack of ability to descale.

I'm still not sure why Breville is so adament about thermos in their lower end machines. They have the cash and economies of scale to easily produce say the 840 as a true single boiler with a real adjustable PID in this price range. Even if they charged more they could undercut the CC1 nicely, I think Le'Lit has the cheapest machine with a PID. But they won't, for whatever reason... people have asked Phil that and others on the AU forum but no real reason why Breville just won't make a single boiler unit in this class.
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MJW
Senior Member


Joined: 25 Jul 2012
Posts: 179
Location: Silicon Valley
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Sat Aug 24, 2013, 6:11pm
Subject: Re: Breville has a new Dual Boiler/Manual/Auto+ grinder espresso machine.
 

Iluvdabean Said:

MJW I used to love endless debates about coffee, then one afternoon I entered the holodeck after a particularly hard day of Romulan issues ( its classified with Starfleet) .I punched in the year 1895 Milan Italy

Posted August 24, 2013 link

I love it, that was hilarious!  Here on the West Coast in answer to a long tirade we say "peace."

But I think you said it way better.

As Dan Kehn would say "you can't buy your way to good espresso".   Or maybe he was quoting someone else.
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Iluvdabean
Senior Member
Iluvdabean
Joined: 7 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,259
Location: Kentucky
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Nuova Era Cuadra/Gaggia...
Grinder: Baratza Preciso/K-A Pro...
Drip: Bonavita BV 1800 TH
Roaster: Nesco 1010/Behmor 1600
Posted Sat Aug 24, 2013, 6:33pm
Subject: Re: Breville has a new Dual Boiler/Manual/Auto+ grinder espresso machine.
 

Im on the west coast. I grew up in Capitola,saw Hendrix and them all in late 68 Filmore was far left,went far right and now Im somewhere in the middle. I retired and we are moving to Kentucky from Hanford Calif.
So yeah...peace...got it. But commander Janeway doesn't approve of such language while on duty! (Finding humor a good thing I have been forced to make myself laugh I make no apologies for that)

MJW Said:

I love it, that was hilarious!  Here on the West Coast in answer to a long tirade we say "peace."

But I think you said it way better.

As Dan Kehn would say "you can't buy your way to good espresso".   Or maybe he was quoting someone else.

Posted August 24, 2013 link

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MJW
Senior Member


Joined: 25 Jul 2012
Posts: 179
Location: Silicon Valley
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Sat Aug 24, 2013, 7:16pm
Subject: Re: Breville has a new Dual Boiler/Manual/Auto+ grinder espresso machine.
 

CMIN, yes I agree that the 900 was a different kind of project and as was said earlier the product seems to reflect the unique goals.  It was a completely new design for them.  Other models like the 840 borrow some minor tech here and there from the 900, but by and large the 840 seems designed to hit a price point and compete with certain other models.  Essentially to replace the 830.  I have a feeling it is a good replacement... how good is it on its own, hard to say.

If the computer is fast enough, and the heating element powerful enough, or the thermal mass (the mass of the block in this case) large enough, a thermoblock can be as good for intra-shot stability as anything else.  In the mean time they are cheap and package-friendly.

I think we'll continue to see thermoblocks being used, in home machines.  Examples: EM6910, EM7000.

[EDIT: I changed the wording a little at the start.]
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MJW
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Joined: 25 Jul 2012
Posts: 179
Location: Silicon Valley
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Sat Aug 24, 2013, 7:24pm
Subject: Re: Breville has a new Dual Boiler/Manual/Auto+ grinder espresso machine.
 

Iluvdabean that is a beautiful area of CA.  68 is before my time I was born the following year.  I hope in KY you'll have some nice green forests around.  By the way I am not Breville borg (lol)  but I think you'll come to know that with time...
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