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Breville has a new Dual Boiler/Manual/Auto+ grinder espresso machine.
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JasonBrandtLewis
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Posted Sat Aug 17, 2013, 6:11am
Subject: Re: Breville has a new Dual Boiler/Manual/Auto+ grinder espresso machine.
 

DeanOK Said:

A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it is not open.

Posted August 17, 2013 link

Or, in the case of Breville, perhaps a more appropriate quotation would be, "An open mind is like a parachute; it only slows you down."

/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\

qualin Said:

I agree that machines which keep the beans above the boiler isn't the best design, but for a space limited kitchen, I can see it having some value.

Posted August 17, 2013 link

"Isn't the best design"?  It's a bloody stupid design!

qualin Said:

I can also see people who use this machine using the single dose method to ensure that the beans don't spoil from the boiler heat.

Posted August 17, 2013 link

That is a "work-around," and while some people may indeed come to that conclusion, doesn't that defeat the purpose of a machine designed to take on a super-auto?  After all, isn't a super-auto all about convenience?

 
A morning without coffee is sleep . . .
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qualin
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qualin
Joined: 30 Jun 2012
Posts: 669
Location: Calgary, AB
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Izzo Alex Duetto 3
Grinder: Mazzer Mini Elect. Type A
Vac Pot: Looking to buy
Drip: Manual
Roaster: Considering?
Posted Sat Aug 17, 2013, 4:51pm
Subject: Re: Breville has a new Dual Boiler/Manual/Auto+ grinder espresso machine.
 

SStones Said:

I can not tell if the original poster was trolling,

Posted August 17, 2013 link

Actually, a bit of TL;DR here. I admit I'm guilty of that. I was commenting more on the pictures and the ad rather than the article.

SStones Said:

"Who is the target market for this $2500 chintz".

Posted August 17, 2013 link

Well, obviously IMO if I had $2500 to spend, the last thing I'd be spending it on would be something like this when there are so many other, much more simplistic and reliable options on the market.
Then again, if it is that expensive, you have to wonder what is making it so expensive. Perhaps as competitors hit the market and Gaggia, Saeco, Jura, etc, provide their own offerings based upon this
technology, the price may come down a bit on this machines and it may become a viable technology to replace the unreliable super-auto.

SStones Said:

Putting a $200 Krups knockoff into a box with a $95 grinder and adding a mechanical tamper over a portafilter holder does not make the box worth $2500.

Posted August 17, 2013 link

Well, this machine is based upon the Breville BES900XL, so it's far more than just a Krups knockoff with a cheap grinder. This isn't a thermoblock machine, it's a true double boiler.
Considering that the BES900XL costs roughly $1200, one has to wonder what the other $1300 is for. Did they really put in a copy of the Smart Grinder? (Which is a $200 grinder BTW)
Or did they engineer a new grinder for this product? Is that auto-tamping mechanism really high quality or is it built with very cheap parts? Until I see one, I won't know.

You have to keep in mind that Breville already had the prosumer market in mind when they developed the BES900XL, so it already has a lot of features which compete directly with machines
like the La Spaziale Mini Vivaldi. Is the quality there? Maybe not, time will tell. What Breville has done though is develop a low end prosumer machine at a consumer grade price. Now they are
attacking the super-automatic market because they want to take away market share from Saeco and Jura. I applaud them for that!

 
Garbage In, Garbage Out, for every step of the process. From Beans to grinder, grounds to machine, coffee to cup.
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qualin
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qualin
Joined: 30 Jun 2012
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Posted Sat Aug 17, 2013, 4:58pm
Subject: Re: Breville has a new Dual Boiler/Manual/Auto+ grinder espresso machine.
 

JasonBrandtLewis Said:

"Isn't the best design"?  It's a bloody stupid design!

Posted August 17, 2013 link

I agree, but then again, show me a machine with an integrated grinder which isn't a stupid design. There really isn't any because the whole premise is flawed and there isn't any way around it.
For the typical average consumer, they really don't care anyway, especially for the target consumer who is buying something like this out of ignorance and convenience.

JasonBrandtLewis Said:

doesn't that defeat the purpose of a machine designed to take on a super-auto?  After all, isn't a super-auto all about convenience?

Posted August 17, 2013 link

I agree. I'm thinking more along the lines of the people who would modify their Rancilio Silvia with a PID to make the machine do more than what it was originally designed to do. After a while,
perhaps an owner of one of these may want "more" out of it, consult these boards, find out they made a $2500 mistake and single dose to get around this limitation while getting as much out
of the machine as they can.

I think one of the biggest problems to any super-auto is that there isn't any way that you can really isolate the beans from the boiler, if it has a boiler instead of a thermoblock, so the
whole premise behind any kind of super-auto is flawed from the start. So, considering the worst, how do you make something crappy better?

 
Garbage In, Garbage Out, for every step of the process. From Beans to grinder, grounds to machine, coffee to cup.
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alanfrew
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alanfrew
Joined: 19 Dec 2001
Posts: 645
Location: Melbourne
Expertise: Professional

Posted Sun Aug 18, 2013, 1:53am
Subject: Re: Breville has a new Dual Boiler/Manual/Auto+ grinder espresso machine.
 

Actually, all that's on view is considerable ignorance on the way that machines with integrated grinders (including superautos) are actually designed and built. The grinders are ALWAYS separated from the heat source. If certain posters could get over their prejudices long enough to actually do like, real, scientific, hard evidence temperature measurements they might have to consider changing their minds.

Alan
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Iluvdabean
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Posted Sun Aug 18, 2013, 8:30am
Subject: Re: Breville has a new Dual Boiler/Manual/Auto+ grinder espresso machine.
 

Alan I think you hit it on the head and I am prejudiced against Breville. It stems from around six years ago when I decided to venture into espresso market and bought an 800 ESXL.
I posted a review here and it was negative. I was so frustrated that it almost ended my entry into espresso. I humbled myself ( a hard thing for me but it gets easier ) and came back here
to ask questions. I got information that led me to Gaggia Classic and MDF. I was in heaven really, so much so I thought I had arrived, and used to argue with people here about their expensive Italian machines.
I actually thought after such a disaster as Brevilles first attempts they would just go away. I just spent five years making great espresso and loving it. Then came my wanting for more
capability so I watched and read more here. Coffeegeek and the people who know what they are talking about ( YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE) have helped me tremendously. I got an HX -E61 machine that
I really enjoy.It produces espresso and steams like a mad man. I got a Preciso grinder and am back to just loving espresso. Then comes the Breville DB and some love it while others are on their third machine.
I am prejudiced and not because I hate people or companies but because I would like people to get started on the right foot. Is Breville a company with passion for epsresso and coffee?
I cant answer that. I dont know who can. Whats funny is I was in a store yesterday buying a Bonavita 1800 BV TH and was having a great exchange with a person there.
Come to find out they have a Breville DB. I apologized for saying negative things and berating Breville. The reason was I saw another brother there who had a passion for the bean.
I could see it in his eyes. So yes Im skeptical. Is it wrong to ask questions when your about to spend 2500 dollars? I see a lot of hype in the Breville commercial, if they made it.
I know sometimes that these threads seem to ask questions that are provocative yet if people can objectively stay on target I think they serve a common good.
I am prejudice and I admit it so I honestly try to just say a little as possible. Things like this though to me are disingenuous.

Iluvdabean: Screen Shot 2013-08-18 at 9.00.51 AM.jpg
(Click for larger image)
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Coffeenoobie
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Posted Sun Aug 18, 2013, 10:28am
Subject: Re: Breville has a new Dual Boiler/Manual/Auto+ grinder espresso machine.
 

I was making fun of the ad.  The way it was scripted made me cringe.  I understand the need for the beans to drop the grinds down but I disagree that it is good for the beans.  My upper cabinet is well isolated from the espresso maker and it still will heat up the dishes inside.

 
Coffeenoobie

Buying advice: GRINDER GRINDER GRINDER. Don't cheap out on the grinder.

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qualin
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qualin
Joined: 30 Jun 2012
Posts: 669
Location: Calgary, AB
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Izzo Alex Duetto 3
Grinder: Mazzer Mini Elect. Type A
Vac Pot: Looking to buy
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Roaster: Considering?
Posted Sun Aug 18, 2013, 11:23am
Subject: Re: Breville has a new Dual Boiler/Manual/Auto+ grinder espresso machine.
 

Iluvdabean Said:

I am prejudiced against Breville.

Posted August 18, 2013 link

I think the problem with Breville was that their engineers were told by the bean counters something along the lines of, "Develop an Espresso machine which sells for $300." and their
engineers struggled to come up with something and came up with something which was full of compromises. Cheap parts? Absolutely. Low Quality parts? Only provided by the lowest bidder! Cheap Labour? Yup.

However, like any manufacturer though, sometimes they really hit the nail on the head and come up with something that just doesn't have any compromises at all. I think the BES900 was
an excellent step in the right direction and finally vindicates some of the engineers which were forced to work with a lousy budget on the cheaper machines. Look at other espresso machines
(I use that term loosely) from any other manufacturer, like Cuisinart for example.. They haven't even tried to consider selling something or anything like the BES900! I don't blame them, it would
be a bad business decision on their part if they did. They're first and foremost a kitchen appliance company, because everyone needs a toaster. :-)

I admittedly would like to mention that I've never really owned a super-auto and never will. My workplace has one and I can certainly say that it really something to hear cooling fans wailing
away after someone makes a coffee, assumedly because the thermoblock has heated up the cavity where everything is stored, including the beans. So, The people who designed that machine
were very aware of the problem with heat affecting beans and made inroads into addressing it. A wailing cooling fan may be suitable for the workplace, but not so much for the home! :-)

Iluvdabean Said:

I was so frustrated that it almost ended my entry into espresso.

Posted August 18, 2013 link

I guess I can't count the number of times I've heard of people (Both offline and online) who had a flaky machine or spent $200 on something like a Breville Cafe Roma and hoped to get something with cafe quality,
only to get disappointed, throwing their pre-ground coffee into the sink and letting it sit on a shelf collecting dust. If should be against the law to sell machines that cheap.

My only hope is that for the people who do decide to spend $2500 on a machine like this, get what they are expecting and don't get disappointed.

 
Garbage In, Garbage Out, for every step of the process. From Beans to grinder, grounds to machine, coffee to cup.
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PeterWWbeagle
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Posted Sun Aug 18, 2013, 11:42am
Subject: Re: Breville has a new Dual Boiler/Manual/Auto+ grinder espresso machine.
 

Iluvdabean Said:

Alan I think you hit it on the head and I am prejudiced against Breville. ..
I am prejudice and I admit it so I honestly try to just say a little as possible.

Posted August 18, 2013 link

Steve, i agree with you.  but let me be so bold to change your word from prejudice to passion.  the levels of passion here vary astronomically.  It's the biggest dichotomy I find on the board.  one large group here is passionate about great coffee and the intimacy of nudging the grind, timing the pull and actually honing in on a great shot.  Many others here simply want great coffee, every time, regardless if the maker is plastic or made in China.   you can see my prejudice/passion in that comment.  

I seek passion over perfection.  that is just who I am.  if a breville makes you happy, that is great. it will not do it  for me but I will try to,not judge others.

but let's be honest, the conflict shows its not just about "coffee."  our prejudices simply reflect  our passions and priorities.   Geeks vs  foolproof.  whats in the cup vs the journey in how it got there.  

what I do not see on CG is people admitting its more Than just good coffee.
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Iluvdabean
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Iluvdabean
Joined: 7 Mar 2005
Posts: 1,297
Location: Kentucky
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Nuova Era Cuadra/Gaggia...
Grinder: Baratza Preciso/K-A Pro...
Drip: Bonavita BV 1800 TH
Roaster: Nesco 1010/Behmor 1600
Posted Sun Aug 18, 2013, 12:58pm
Subject: Re: Breville has a new Dual Boiler/Manual/Auto+ grinder espresso machine.
 

PeterWWbeagle Said:

Steve, i agree with you.  but let me be so bold to change your word from prejudice to passion.  the levels of passion here vary astronomically.  It's the biggest dichotomy I find on the board.  one large group here is passionate about great coffee and the intimacy of nudging the grind, timing the pull and actually honing in on a great shot.  Many others here simply want great coffee, every time, regardless if the maker is plastic or made in China.   you can see my prejudice/passion in that comment.  

I seek passion over perfection.  that is just who I am.  if a breville makes you happy, that is great. it will not do it  for me but I will try to,not judge others.

but let's be honest, the conflict shows its not just about "coffee."  our prejudices simply reflect  our passions and priorities.   Geeks vs  foolproof.  whats in the cup vs the journey in how it got there.  

what I do not see on CG is people admitting its more Than just good coffee.

Posted August 18, 2013 link

I come here a lot a read and learn without commenting. There are people here whose wisdom is free and when you think about it being free it amazing.
I realize though that they paid for it with blood,sweat and tears.
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MJW
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Posts: 179
Location: Silicon Valley
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Fri Aug 23, 2013, 3:23pm
Subject: Re: Breville has a new Dual Boiler/Manual/Auto+ grinder espresso machine.
 

Iluvdabean Said:

Alan I think you hit it on the head and I am prejudiced against Breville. It stems from around six years ago when I decided to venture into espresso market and bought an 800 ESXL.
I am prejudiced and not because I hate people or companies but because I would like people to get started on the right foot. Is Breville a company with passion for epsresso and coffee?

Posted August 18, 2013 link

You folks are getting philosophical, which in my view is absolutely the right thing.  Iluvdabean, may I pick on you?  :)  Regarding the 800, did you ever think back and consider that Breville may have saved you from an even worse product -- I know, hard to imagine, but possible -- than the 800?  Some other product that was even cheaper and more lousy?  It was your belief at the time that a good espresso machine could be cheap and weigh less than 100 pounds.  It was Breville's decision to play in that "market" but it was your decision to be that market.

When I was shopping for calipers I came across a Chinese product that was 1/4 the price but I saw a review that said, to the effect, "this product doesn't always give the same reading".  Meaning, as an instrument it's a complete failure.  But even knowing this, it's hard to resist the lower price!  It's hard for all of us.  OK it's hard for me.  It's hard to resist those lower prices when we're not absolutely certain we need to pay 50% more or 300% more.  And how often do we have a deep understanding of what we're buying?

Another quick story.  I once came across a youtube video where the person was complaining about an electric kettle that had broken.  It was made of plastic.  She next pans to a pile of previous plastic kettles, all broken!  She says, "they don't make them like they used to".  Well they do, but this person chose not to buy those ones, but instead bought the cheapest one, over and over.  It was her own lack of insight into what she wanted and how to get it, that was -- in part -- the source of her problem.

So is it your fault you bought the 800?  How could it be your fault when you're bombarded with nonsense.  Never mind the ads there's nonsense ideas like "perfect" coffee and "14 BAR" pump.  That's my favorite, the 14 bar pump.  Like anyone who is shopping on Amazon even knows what a bar is.  But if they do, the spec is meaningless, irrelevant, and misleading.  The pump produces 15 bar at zero flow.  But you don't make coffee at zero flow.  What we have here is ignorant marketing people trying to sell, well, garbage, to ignorant people.  How do you accomplish that?  Well, apparently you tell them it has a 15 bar pump, that seems to work.  We the ignorant buy products based on labels, like "Organic" and "Kona" instead of quality, because quality is truly tricky and difficult to understand and appraise.

If you're a company like Breville who takes the status quo at face value, you quickly realize that if you come to market with an "espresso" machine that costs $200 and Krups comes to market with an "espresso" machine for $179.99, no one will buy the Breville product because price is the only differentiating feature the consumer understands.  If however a manufacturer goes the other way they could end up like Olympia Express, that makes unbelievably beautiful, well designed & well built machines that don't have a vacuum breaker and don't allow 20 gram doses, because they have principles.  And it costs -- actually I don't know but it's a lot.  More than you think.  And none of even the most passionate espresso dudes will buy a Maximatic or a Cremina, because they are too extreme and have fewer features and they're way more expensive.  Instead you'll buy the cheap cheap ECM machine 'cause it has a refill pump for the steam boiler, it has an "E61" -- tell me you actually understand the value of the E61, is really better than Olympia's group design?  It allows you get 20 gram doses, pull ristrettos, everything that CG and HB tell you is must-have.

So the Swiss dudes at Olympia Express roll their eyes at your crass consumerism -- you bought the ECM machine you see -- and silly fads and exasperating fetish with brass.  Not that there's anything wrong with brass but it's just a material used as a means to accomplish an end, a design goal.  And they go and build their super-expensive machines, with stainless steel boilers, that no one buys.  Because they're too good, and too darned expensive.

At some point in the spectrum of principles, quality, and price points, there does exist presumably a happy medium.  Most of the folks here have, in buying their Giotto, chosen one happy medium.  Perhaps unknowingly so.  Other folks, buying a BDB, have chosen a slightly different happy medium.  Does a machine have to weigh 100 pounds to be reliable?  Is weight the same thing as reliability, or is actual reliability the same thing as reliability?  Is geography of assembly a determinant of quality or is it superstitious nonsense created by people who don't know what MTBF is?  I mean, just open the machine and assess likely failure points under expected use cases.  It's not hard if you KNOW how to assess quality fittings, wiring, effects of humidity, how rubber ages, and so on.  Some things you'll just have to see how it goes, some things can be tested, some things really can't be tested.  But we consumers don't know anything about actual quality, so instead of just measuring things, we make up fairy tales and call people names.

When a thinking person buys a BDB (for example) they are acting on a theory that a happy medium exists, at a price point slightly below where other people think one exists.  The BDB buyer doesn't care about chrome, weight, China, and copper.  They care about actual performance and reliability, and maybe the convenience features.  Mostly they are thinking a cheaper machine can work fine.  So they try it out and sometimes these dudes are wrong, and sometimes they are right.

The right thing to do to find out whether a machine is high quality or high reliability is define what that means and test it.  It takes time and it's a lot of work, so it's much easier to make conclusions based on brand names and labeling, and worshipping brass or "temperature stability" or "14 bar" or "E61" or "58mm".  It's a mental short cut.  Just keep in mind that although mental short cuts are easy, there are any number of selling machines out there, Breville and ECM included, who are working to take advantage of your mental short cuts and sell you something less performant than you think it is, for more money than it's worth.  This is why so much effort is put into reviewing machines carefully, by Dan Kehn and many other tireless workers.

-Mike
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