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Vetrano 2B vs volumetric (I am second guessing myself)
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Discussions > Espresso > Machines > Vetrano 2B vs...  
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DeanOK
Senior Member
DeanOK
Joined: 24 Sep 2012
Posts: 690
Location: OK
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: QM Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Vario W
Posted Mon Aug 12, 2013, 10:42am
Subject: Re: Vetrano 2B vs volumetric (I am second guessing myself)
 

CarloM Said:

Dean - yep you know exactly what I'm talking about. ;)

Posted August 12, 2013 link

Just imagine the pain we will both feel if we still feel the same way after we get a B2.

What brew pressure did you use when you were pulling shots on a commercial machine? I would assume you were around 9 bars. If so, how do you suppose a high end machine can produce the thick espresso you like but you Silvia will not? I would assume you are around 9 bars with the Silvia also? Wouldn't that be a function of brew pressure?
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CarloM
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Apr 2013
Posts: 323
Location: Los Angeles
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Vetrano V2B
Grinder: Mazzer Mini-E Type A, SJ...
Drip: Toddy
Posted Mon Aug 12, 2013, 11:17am
Subject: Re: Vetrano 2B vs volumetric (I am second guessing myself)
 

DeanOK Said:

Just imagine the pain we will both feel if we still feel the same way after we get a B2.

What brew pressure did you use when you were pulling shots on a commercial machine? I would assume you were around 9 bars. If so, how do you suppose a high end machine can produce the thick espresso you like but you Silvia will not? I would assume you are around 9 bars with the Silvia also? Wouldn't that be a function of brew pressure?

Posted August 12, 2013 link

Dean - yes it was right around 9 bars (this was many years ago and the machine was set up by the local tech). We all assume that our Silvias (and other home machines that lack manometers) are around 9 bars, but without a pressure gauge I'm taking it on faith. I'm going to guess I'm not at 9 bars. And without a proper gauge I can't dial it in.

I realize I could buy a SCACE and dial in the pressure on my Silvia for a fraction of the V2B. However I also am upgrading because of the subpar steam (in terms of microfoam) performance, as well as the need to recharge the Silvia between drinks vs. making drink after drink on a dual boiler (especially if I can get my manager to install a 20A outlet in my apt, where there are plenty of 20A circuits if the breaker box labeling is accurate). Making 4 lattes properly (i.e. waiting for temp to re-stabilize even after flushing and cooling) takes up to 20 minutes on my Silvia. A DB should get me closer to 5-7 minutes for four drinks.

While I don't think a V2B = La Marzocco Strada, or a Synesso Cyncra, I do have faith based on the videos I've seen of extractions from machines in the same range as the V2B that we'll get much closer performance than what I can get out of my Silvia.
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DeanOK
Senior Member
DeanOK
Joined: 24 Sep 2012
Posts: 690
Location: OK
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: QM Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Vario W
Posted Mon Aug 12, 2013, 11:29am
Subject: Re: Vetrano 2B vs volumetric (I am second guessing myself)
 

CarloM Said:

Dean - yes it was right around 9 bars ....

Posted August 12, 2013 link

What kind of grinder do you use? Can the difference between a $500 and a $1500 grinder have a major effect on the brew quality you are discussing? I use a vario W. When I bought it, I felt like the Vario had a good reputation, now I hear a lot of complaints. I would hate to think I need to chunk my grinder.
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CarloM
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Apr 2013
Posts: 323
Location: Los Angeles
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Vetrano V2B
Grinder: Mazzer Mini-E Type A, SJ...
Drip: Toddy
Posted Mon Aug 12, 2013, 11:52am
Subject: Re: Vetrano 2B vs volumetric (I am second guessing myself)
 

DeanOK Said:

What kind of grinder do you use? Can the difference between a $500 and a $1500 grinder have a major effect on the brew quality you are discussing? I use a vario W. When I bought it, I felt like the Vario had a good reputation, now I hear a lot of complaints. I would hate to think I need to chunk my grinder.

Posted August 12, 2013 link

I use a Mazzer Mini-E Type A. I am very happy with the performance (and in fact when I upgraded from the Baratza Preciso it immediately increased my shot quality in a very noticeable way). I don't think it's the limiting factor for me. The Vario W I thought was respected, so I wouldn't think you'd have to get a new one.
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calblacksmith
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calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 7,786
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Mon Aug 12, 2013, 1:06pm
Subject: Re: Vetrano 2B vs volumetric (I am second guessing myself)
 

The Vario should be fine. A upgrade will make a difference but there is no pressing need right now.

There is ALWAYS something to upgrade to, understanding when you hit your personal point of diminishing returns is the cure to the upgrade bug.

 
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CarloM
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Apr 2013
Posts: 323
Location: Los Angeles
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Vetrano V2B
Grinder: Mazzer Mini-E Type A, SJ...
Drip: Toddy
Posted Mon Aug 12, 2013, 2:29pm
Subject: Re: Vetrano 2B vs volumetric (I am second guessing myself)
 

calblacksmith Said:

The Vario should be fine. A upgrade will make a difference but there is no pressing need right now.

There is ALWAYS something to upgrade to, understanding when you hit your personal point of diminishing returns is the cure to the upgrade bug.

Posted August 12, 2013 link

Sage advice.

I know that I could do produce better results than my Mini-E ($800) by going with a Mazzer Robur ($2600), Nuovo Simonelli Mythos ($2400) or a Mahlkonig Vario K30 ($1600). Just as I could probably get better extractions than the Vetrano 2B ($2150) with a La Marzocco GS/3 ($6700) but that's a line I'm not willing/able to cross.

Now if I'm the next 6-for-6 Powerball winner...we'll revisit this discussion. ;)
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DeanOK
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DeanOK
Joined: 24 Sep 2012
Posts: 690
Location: OK
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: QM Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Vario W
Posted Mon Aug 12, 2013, 2:51pm
Subject: Re: Vetrano 2B vs volumetric (I am second guessing myself)
 

CarloM Said:

Sage advice.

I know that I could do produce better results than my Mini-E ($800) by going with a Mazzer Robur ($2600), Nuovo Simonelli Mythos ($2400) or a Mahlkonig Vario K30 ($1600). Just as I could probably get better extractions than the Vetrano 2B ($2150) with a La Marzocco GS/3 ($6700) but that's a line I'm not willing/able to cross.

Now if I'm the next 6-for-6 Powerball winner...we'll revisit this discussion. ;)

Posted August 12, 2013 link

I gotta tell you I don't understand why a GS3 would make a lot better shot than a B2 or any other well designed machine. Yes, I see the quality of the GS3, but for me anyway, if your pushing the right temperature water at the correct rate through the correct amount of correctly ground coffee and you have a brew head that can hold the temperature stable, I don't see where it should make much difference what the brand is on the machine... so someone needs to explain to me why 9 bars of pressure at 201F from one machine is better than another.

I don't mean for that to sound like sour grapes... I just don't understand what the difference is. Yes, there is really pretty machines out there... but in the end, don't they all do the same thing? If you have stable water temperatures, stable brew pressure, pre heated brew head, and control of pre infusion (if your into that), what else could make a difference other than the grinder (assuming barista skill is the same from one machine to then next)?
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CarloM
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Apr 2013
Posts: 323
Location: Los Angeles
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Vetrano V2B
Grinder: Mazzer Mini-E Type A, SJ...
Drip: Toddy
Posted Mon Aug 12, 2013, 3:07pm
Subject: Re: Vetrano 2B vs volumetric (I am second guessing myself)
 

Dean - I would think that a well dialed in V2B, Duetto, Vivaldi, etc. could compete with the GS3 and maybe even the commercial machines, if you're only making a few drinks at any time.

Where the GS3 and commercials would exceed our dual boiler machines is when multiple drinks (and especially large, consecutive, milk-steaming jobs) are needed in fast succession. You need a lot of boiler capacity and steam power to do that, and that's where a GS3 and commercials make their worth known. With a DB home machine, the V2B brew boiler is .75 liters, and remember as you are making shots new water is being drawn into the hot water and the heating element will need to kick on to maintain the temperature you need to make good, repeatable shots. Obviously the larger the boiler, the less new water has to be drawn in, and when it is, it's quickly heated up by the larger volume of already hot water that's in a larger boiler.

In a home environment, making 1-4 drinks at any one time, it's definitely not worth it to be looking at the GS3 or higher. But if you're consistently making more drinks in a rapid succession, that's when the larger boilers pay off.

So coincidentally, you can infer from my description above if one were to be making several latte style drinks, you're constantly drawing in water for both the brew and the steam. But in 15A mode only one boiler can come on at any one time, and most PIDs give priority to the brew boiler. So that's also why a lot of us are investigating running on 20A mode so both boilers can come on simultaneously. Of course, if you're making very few drinks, or not steaming a lot of milk, you may be just as well served running at 15A.
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DeanOK
Senior Member
DeanOK
Joined: 24 Sep 2012
Posts: 690
Location: OK
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: QM Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Vario W
Posted Mon Aug 12, 2013, 3:21pm
Subject: Re: Vetrano 2B vs volumetric (I am second guessing myself)
 

CarloM Said:

Dean - I would think that a well dialed in V2B, Duetto, Vivaldi, etc. could compete with the GS3 and maybe even the commercial machines, if you're only making a few drinks at any time..

Posted August 12, 2013 link

I understand and agree with that... I am only talking about low volume production that I would do in my home. And I am not trying to shine a bad light on the GS3... I would certainly take one if someone wanted to give me one. I rarely make more than one drink at a time. Most of my family and friends don't care much for espresso based drinks and none of them understand why I do. I plan on trying mine in the 15 amp mode... if I think I need 20A, I will just add a dedicated plug for it. Not a big deal in my house and my dad was an electrician in his day, so I won't even have to hire it done.

BTW, I have checked my pressure on my CC1, but only with the brew head blanked off. Most vibe pumps roll off fast when you go past normal production flow rates and if there is anything at all wrong with the pump or a slight leak anywhere, I could see where brew pressure could actually be low once water starts flowing. If I were going to keep my CC1 I would build me a adapter for the PF that I have my pressure gauge on to allow about 2 oz of water to flow in 25 or 30 seconds while I was checking brew pressure... then I think I would have a pretty good idea.... but blanked off, I really don't know for sure.

Edit: I don't think the prosumer QM machines have the correct sanitary certifications to be used in a commercial environment in the states... not sure about Europe.
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CMIN
Senior Member


Joined: 14 Jun 2012
Posts: 1,382
Location: South FL
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Crossland CC1
Grinder: Baratza Preciso
Posted Mon Aug 12, 2013, 4:14pm
Subject: Re: Vetrano 2B vs volumetric (I am second guessing myself)
 

The only area I can think of where the GS3 would make a noticeably different shot is the people who pressure profile on it. Otherwise same grinder and beans, I doubt you'll see a shot "taste" difference between a V2B or similar home machine and the GS3 (not pressure profiling, just a normal pull). But for repeated use as mentioned, successive shots and steaming, that's where the GS3 excels over those prosumer type machines.
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