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Vetrano 2B vs volumetric (I am second guessing myself)
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Discussions > Espresso > Machines > Vetrano 2B vs...  
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DeanOK
Senior Member
DeanOK
Joined: 24 Sep 2012
Posts: 683
Location: OK
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: QM Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Vario W
Posted Wed Aug 7, 2013, 8:02am
Subject: Vetrano 2B vs volumetric (I am second guessing myself)
 

Ok, I am second guessing myself. I have pre-ordered a 2B. Just a few weeks ago I had decided my last and final machine would be a nice volumetric unit like the Dream or the Vivaldi II. So I am trying to analyze this decision... I don't want to have buyers remorse.

I think volumetric dozing may be of some benefit to me. I have trouble staying in the sweet spot when it comes to shots. While I don't think volumetric dosing will create a perfect shot, it may well take some of the guess work out of making the best shot you can when your grind is off just a bit. Is this a correct assumption?

Here is something else... I don't really like the looks of most volumetric machines. They are more industrial and have more do-dads that will probably not hold up in the long run (such as all those little buttons).

With that said, the B2 is a look I like better, but is not my idea of a beautiful machine. All the machines I consider really nice to look at are 5K to 10K. I will never spend that much money for looks. Just not that kind of person. I would love to have a machine that looks like the ECM controvento that could create a great shot and be reliable... but lets face it... your paying mostly for looks.

Why did I choose the B2 to pre-order? Well, first thing was the rotary pump. I don't personally think the rotary pump makes a bit better coffee that a vibe pump, but I just don't like the vibe pump sound (the Dream has a vibe pump btw). I also liked the dual boiler and the fact that it was flexible when it came to plumbing. I feel like it is a machine that will last a long time, so I may want to plumb it in some day. Right now, I don't think I will... but you never know. I like the simplistic approach to the way the machine is built. Basic good components that are easy to service, and seems like parts will be easy to get. From the photos I have seen,  I do think the wiring is a little sloppy, and good be easily improved with some kind of wrap to make a neater harness, but this is not an issue that should effect performance. The E61 group seems to me to be a proven design as long as you have a good thermo-syphon system design. There is a lot of controversy over the wattage of the elements and the 15/20 amp mode. Neither of these are a concern for me. What I expect from this machine is long life if I provide reasonable maintenance, easy parts availability and a the ability to make a good shot of espresso.

So back to the volumetric issue... will this change my life if I have it? I would love to hear from those of you that have been on both sides of the fence.
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CarloM
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Apr 2013
Posts: 323
Location: Los Angeles
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Vetrano V2B
Grinder: Mazzer Mini-E Type A, SJ...
Drip: Toddy
Posted Wed Aug 7, 2013, 9:48am
Subject: Re: Vetrano 2B vs volumetric (I am second guessing myself)
 

One thing to consider: all of the "high end" coffee houses I've been to in Los Angeles (and in Chicago and NYC) don't have volumetric dosing machines. Starbucks, Peets and Coffee Bean and Tea Leaf do have volumetric machines. It's not as if Intelligentsia, Zibetto, Portola Coffee Lab, etc. can't afford volumetric machines, their machines cost thousands more than the Starbucks/Peets/CBTL machines.

From a convenience standpoint, volumetric dosing is obviously a benefit, click it, walk away, do whatever you want, come back and it's done to the same amount, every time. You will have to spend some time dialing and adjusting when you change beans.

So it's up to you. Do you want the convenience that volumetric gives? Some people are born tinkerers, others aren't. My opinion is that true high quality espresso is just as much art as science, and I like the ability to start and stop the extraction. Sometimes the same bean and grind will vary a little and you'll want to pull it short. Sometimes you'll want to let it run a little longer. I like watching the extraction, I don't really like to walk away so the convenience factor is not something I'd want. But only you know what's important to you so if convenience is, then definitely consider a volumetric machine.

Good luck!
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tglodjo
Senior Member
tglodjo
Joined: 16 Oct 2012
Posts: 209
Location: Jackson, TN
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Spaziale Mini Vivaldi II
Grinder: Baratza Vario, Virtuoso
Drip: Wave, V60, Chemex, Clever
Roaster: Behmor 1600
Posted Wed Aug 7, 2013, 9:55am
Subject: Re: Vetrano 2B vs volumetric (I am second guessing myself)
 

Volumetric shouldn't be your primary decision-maker at this point.

Stop double guessing the Vetrano 2B. If the aesthetics work for you, it really seems to be the top of its class.

I have a Mini Vivaldi II (for sale in the BST forums!), and it has volumetric dosing. It is a convenience feature when you don't want to focus on the art of espresso making. For example, I dial in and set the volume when I change beans/grind, and it is great for when I'm making my wife a milk-based drink with syrups. With that, the actually espresso quality (when mostly dialed in) isn't going to make or break the drink. It's also good, though, that you can stop the shot at any point if you want. This is what I do when I'm making a shot for myself. I don't use volume then, but weight and sight based pulls.

So, from my experience, yes, it can add some convenience, but in all reality, it would be very far down on my list for must-have features. Personally, I love the aesthetic of the Vivaldi, so if given the chance, I would still pick it over the Vetrano, which is why I said if you like the design and appearance of the 2B, stick with it. You're not missing anything with the volumetric dosing.

That is unless you want to buy mine. In that case, change your mind! :)
(I'm selling for financial reasons, not because of anything I don't like about it.)
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calblacksmith
Moderator
calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 7,775
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Wed Aug 7, 2013, 10:40am
Subject: Re: Vetrano 2B vs volumetric (I am second guessing myself)
 

I love volumetric. You do still have full control over the shot just as in a semi auto and you have the consistency that only volumetric can give. It makes it soooooooo much easier to dial in your grinder. You set your weight, adjust the grind and watch the shot pull. Regardless of the cup you use, you get the same shot, cup after cup. I have several different shape and size cups so it really makes things easier. Once the grinder is set, small adjustments are all you need to do. If the shot runs a little fast then tighten up the grind a little, only when you go to younger beans do you need to loosen up the grind.

Some people feel that you loose the ability to tweak the shot, not so, you can start and stop any time you want, just like the semi auto. All the art, all the MANNO is still there, no difference in the skill required either, you have it or you don't and you still need it.

We use a scale to be consistent with our grind volume, we use a scale to be consistent with the tamp, we use a clock to be consistent with the time, why should we not use as set volume of water to be consistent with the 99.9% of the shot that most people "eyeball" ?

I can't help you with what appeals to you in the looks department, that is different for every person and there is no right or wrong way to look at the issue.

I always say that if you can afford it, go plumb in and volumetric you will not be sorry for either feature.

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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takeshi
Senior Member
takeshi
Joined: 12 Oct 2002
Posts: 976
Location: Houston
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Alex Duetto 3.0
Grinder: Super Jolly
Roaster: Amaya Roasting
Posted Wed Aug 7, 2013, 10:54am
Subject: Re: Vetrano 2B vs volumetric (I am second guessing myself)
 

DeanOK Said:

So back to the volumetric issue... will this change my life if I have it?

Posted August 7, 2013 link

Like a number of things, it's a matter of preference and no one can tell you what you will or will not prefer.  You have to determine its priority for you and the catch is that it's first hand experience that you have to rely on to determine these things.

Doesn't seem like it would be "life changing" but maybe it is for someone out there.  Seems mostly like a matter of convenience to me
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DeanOK
Senior Member
DeanOK
Joined: 24 Sep 2012
Posts: 683
Location: OK
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: QM Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Vario W
Posted Wed Aug 7, 2013, 1:56pm
Subject: Re: Vetrano 2B vs volumetric (I am second guessing myself)
 

takeshi Said:

Like a number of things, it's a matter of preference and no one can tell you what you will or will not prefer.  You have to determine its priority for you and the catch is that it's first hand experience that you have to rely on to determine these things.

Doesn't seem like it would be "life changing" but maybe it is for someone out there.  Seems mostly like a matter of convenience to me

Posted August 7, 2013 link

I like the shot timer on the CC1 that I have. I watch the time as the shot progresses and then I have a scale under my shot glass... so basically I am watching yield and shot time at the same time, and I know what I think is a perfect shot time if everything comes out ok, but I often have to go long or short to try and get the "best deal" from all of the parameters. The only variable that does not change is the weight of my grounds. I always weigh them in.
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calblacksmith
Moderator
calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 7,775
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Wed Aug 7, 2013, 2:07pm
Subject: Re: Vetrano 2B vs volumetric (I am second guessing myself)
 

If you are adjusting time long or short, your grind is off.
Wouldn't it be nice to get rid of the scale under your pf and be able to pull straight into your final cup, not loosing any crema pouring from the shot glass?

As the water is always the same, adjust grind so that the time works out. Bang, you are done. Simple.

I have both volumetric and semi auto, the semi auto is a PITA after getting used to volumetric.

YMMV!

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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CarloM
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Apr 2013
Posts: 323
Location: Los Angeles
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Vetrano V2B
Grinder: Mazzer Mini-E Type A, SJ...
Drip: Toddy
Posted Wed Aug 7, 2013, 5:07pm
Subject: Re: Vetrano 2B vs volumetric (I am second guessing myself)
 

calblacksmith Said:

If you are adjusting time long or short, your grind is off.
Wouldn't it be nice to get rid of the scale under your pf and be able to pull straight into your final cup, not loosing any crema pouring from the shot glass?

As the water is always the same, adjust grind so that the time works out. Bang, you are done. Simple.

I have both volumetric and semi auto, the semi auto is a PITA after getting used to volumetric.

YMMV!

Posted August 7, 2013 link

So as we've been saying, it's all up to you and your preferences. In my youth I worked at a high volume coffee shop with a volumetric. That's what I was trained on. That's what I grew up with and worked with for years. I don't mind the non-volumetric of my Silvia (I mind other things :D ). And it didn't play a factor obviously in my decision to preorder a V2B.
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DeanOK
Senior Member
DeanOK
Joined: 24 Sep 2012
Posts: 683
Location: OK
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: QM Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Vario W
Posted Wed Aug 7, 2013, 5:20pm
Subject: Re: Vetrano 2B vs volumetric (I am second guessing myself)
 

I think La Spaziale is the is the only brand that has a volumetric under $3500 that I know about. Their tank machines have vibe pumps if I remember correctly. And I am not keen on the way they look (don't mean to offend anyone I just would rather have a different look). Is there another brand below $3500 that I do not know about?
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Zevi
Senior Member


Joined: 28 Mar 2013
Posts: 112
Location: Ann Arbor
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Posted Wed Aug 7, 2013, 6:12pm
Subject: Re: Vetrano 2B vs volumetric (I am second guessing myself)
 

DeanOK Said:

I think La Spaziale is the is the only brand that has a volumetric under $3500 that I know about. Their tank machines have vibe pumps if I remember correctly. And I am not keen on the way they look (don't mean to offend anyone I just would rather have a different look). Is there another brand below $3500 that I do not know about?

Posted August 7, 2013 link

For other volumetric machines checkout the Pasquini or the Musica. SCG also have a cheaper version of the Pasquini.
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