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Vetrano 2B vs volumetric (I am second guessing myself)
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Discussions > Espresso > Machines > Vetrano 2B vs...  
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tglodjo
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tglodjo
Joined: 16 Oct 2012
Posts: 209
Location: Jackson, TN
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Spaziale Mini Vivaldi II
Grinder: Baratza Vario, Virtuoso
Drip: Wave, V60, Chemex, Clever
Roaster: Behmor 1600
Posted Wed Aug 7, 2013, 5:47pm
Subject: Re: Vetrano 2B vs volumetric (I am second guessing myself)
 

Vibiemme has a volumetric heat exchanger for a little less than their dual boiler.

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CSME9
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CSME9
Joined: 26 Feb 2004
Posts: 291
Location: West Texas
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Bezzera Mitica Top, Spaz...
Grinder: Rancilio Rocky
Drip: Moka Pot
Roaster: BBQ Roaster
Posted Thu Aug 8, 2013, 4:20am
Subject: Re: Vetrano 2B vs volumetric (I am second guessing myself)
 

DeanOK Said:

Ok, I am second guessing myself. I have pre-ordered a 2B. Just a few weeks ago I had decided my last and final machine would be a nice volumetric unit like the Dream or the Vivaldi II. So I am trying to analyze this decision... I don't want to have buyers remorse.

I think volumetric dozing may be of some benefit to me. I have trouble staying in the sweet spot when it comes to shots. While I don't think volumetric dosing will create a perfect shot, it may well take some of the guess work out of making the best shot you can when your grind is off just a bit. Is this a correct assumption?

Here is something else... I don't really like the looks of most volumetric machines. They are more industrial and have more do-dads that will probably not hold up in the long run (such as all those little buttons).

With that said, the B2 is a look I like better, but is not my idea of a beautiful machine. All the machines I consider really nice to look at are 5K to 10K. I will never spend that much money for looks. Just not that kind of person. I would love to have a machine that looks like the ECM controvento that could create a great shot and be reliable... but lets face it... your paying mostly for looks.

Why did I choose the B2 to pre-order? Well, first thing was the rotary pump. I don't personally think the rotary pump makes a bit better coffee that a vibe pump, but I just don't like the vibe pump sound (the Dream has a vibe pump btw). I also liked the dual boiler and the fact that it was flexible when it came to plumbing. I feel like it is a machine that will last a long time, so I may want to plumb it in some day. Right now, I don't think I will... but you never know. I like the simplistic approach to the way the machine is built. Basic good components that are easy to service, and seems like parts will be easy to get. From the photos I have seen,  I do think the wiring is a little sloppy, and good be easily improved with some kind of wrap to make a neater harness, but this is not an issue that should effect performance. The E61 group seems to me to be a proven design as long as you have a good thermo-syphon system design. There is a lot of controversy over the wattage of the elements and the 15/20 amp mode. Neither of these are a concern for me. What I expect from this machine is long life if I provide reasonable maintenance, easy parts availability and a the ability to make a good shot of espresso.

So back to the volumetric issue... will this change my life if I have it? I would love to hear from those of you that have been on both sides of the fence.

Posted August 7, 2013 link

Volumetric would add a convenience to be used when needed, but you could always use the manual button to start and stop the shot. The Vivaldi rotary and Mini vibe pump have been out for a while, proven design, plastic side panels and drip tray which are a plus or minus, solid frame, and most bugs have been worked out and they have sold a ton of these machines. The Dream T is a new design that has had a rough start with the new front panel interface. Shots I have seen coming from a Vivaldi look pretty good and are known for very good steaming. The E61 would probably be easier for the home user to diagnose and repair.
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calblacksmith
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calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
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Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
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Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
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Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
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Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Thu Aug 8, 2013, 5:13am
Subject: Re: Vetrano 2B vs volumetric (I am second guessing myself)
 

CarloM Said:

So as we've been saying, it's all up to you and your preferences. In my youth I worked at a high volume coffee shop with a volumetric. That's what I was trained on. That's what I grew up with and worked with for years. I don't mind the non-volumetric of my Silvia (I mind other things :D ). And it didn't play a factor obviously in my decision to preorder a V2B.

Posted August 7, 2013 link

It is ALL about personal preferences, for mechanics, operating system, looks, topology, intended use and features.

For straight shots only a SBDU is perfectly able to deliver outstanding coffee, it takes more work to get them and by the time you add a PID which is pretty much required to be more consistent with the shots, it costs near what a next class up machine costs.

A HX and a DB are pretty much the same, they operate internally differently but they both have the same abilities and each has it's strong points and "weak" points (though that is in the eye of the beholder too)

Looks are a highly personal thing, there is no right or wrong as are features of the machines under consideration, what is important to one person is of no value to another.

Congrats on your pending new machine, may it serve you well for a long time. The OP asked about volumetric dosing in specific and I gave my reasons that I am highly in favor of them. That does not mean that my decision is better or worse than any other persons views, they are what is important to me and for high quality and consistent shots for my coffee.

Enjoy!

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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DeanOK
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DeanOK
Joined: 24 Sep 2012
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Location: OK
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Espresso: QM Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Vario W
Posted Thu Aug 8, 2013, 6:54am
Subject: Re: Vetrano 2B vs volumetric (I am second guessing myself)
 

Ok... after reading everyone's comments, here is where I stand. At this point I don't see a better option for me than the 2B. Yes, if I could find something I like that lines up on other features and ALSO has a volumetric function for under 3K, I would probably buy it. But I don't see anything that I think I want to own. With that said, I am afraid that the 2B may not be my last machine. If I get to the point to where I think I am creating as good a shot as I can get, I wont worry about what other kinds of machines are on the market.... but we will see. I really want the 2B to be my last machine. To be honest, I am a bit ashamed of how much I have spent on coffee equipment in the last 15 months. If I buy anything else in the near term, my family will have an intervention. I am not sure I blame them.
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sharky
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sharky
Joined: 9 Jan 2013
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Location: Calgary, AB
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: QM Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Compak K3 Touch
Posted Mon Aug 12, 2013, 1:43am
Subject: Re: Vetrano 2B vs volumetric (I am second guessing myself)
 

DeanOK Said:

Ok... after reading everyone's comments, here is where I stand. At this point I don't see a better option for me than the 2B. Yes, if I could find something I like that lines up on other features and ALSO has a volumetric function for under 3K, I would probably buy it. But I don't see anything that I think I want to own. With that said, I am afraid that the 2B may not be my last machine. If I get to the point to where I think I am creating as good a shot as I can get, I wont worry about what other kinds of machines are on the market.... but we will see. I really want the 2B to be my last machine. To be honest, I am a bit ashamed of how much I have spent on coffee equipment in the last 15 months. If I buy anything else in the near term, my family will have an intervention. I am not sure I blame them.

Posted August 8, 2013 link


Excellent choice!  I have pre-ordered the Vetrano 2b as well.  I don't think there is a better machine out there for the price and sooooo looking forward to getting one!
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frcn
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frcn
Joined: 23 Dec 2001
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Location: Northern California
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: Vibiemme Domobar Double
Grinder: Mazzer Kony, Baratza...
Vac Pot: Hario, 2 Cory pots, 1 Cory...
Drip: Behmor Brazen, Bunn A10 mod...
Roaster: computer controlled Hottop,...
Posted Mon Aug 12, 2013, 7:10am
Subject: Re: Vetrano 2B vs volumetric (I am second guessing myself)
 

I do not regret my acquisition of the Vibiemme Domobar Double. it's not perfect, but it reflects my preferences in that I like simple machines, so no volumetric dosing and a minimum of electronics. The PID system produces amazing consistency. The E-61 manual group is simplicity itself, and is very easy to maintain and overhaul. I have never had a volumetric machine and do not see one in my future, so I will not comment on its value other than saying I feel it is an unnecessary complication for this home user.

So all that counts is that the machine you get is the machine you want.

 
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CarloM
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Joined: 1 Apr 2013
Posts: 332
Location: Los Angeles
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Vetrano V2B
Grinder: Mazzer Mini-E Type A, SJ...
Drip: Toddy
Posted Mon Aug 12, 2013, 7:55am
Subject: Re: Vetrano 2B vs volumetric (I am second guessing myself)
 

Thanks for sharing your experience frcn. I agree with what you've written.

I've been using my Silvia PID now for almost a year and a half and rarely go out for espresso anymore. But this past weekend my girl and I were gallivanting around Los Angeles and I went to Caffe Luxxe (morning) and Intelligentsia (evening). Watching the extraction from their high end machines showed me that in my 18 months of going through dozens of pounds of beans, dialing in the grind, perfecting the tamp, weighing the dose, using a bottomless portafilter and VST basket (both of which helped me improve my shots tremendously), that there's still a sizable gap between my best extraction and the ones that I get from Intelligentsia/Luxxe.

I know some of it is on me as I continue to improve my barista skills. But also some of it is on the machine. I won't even get to how easy it is with a powerful 4-hole steam tip and dry steam to achieve microfoam in comparison to a single hole tip from a Silvia boiler (no matter how well you bleed it).

Now I don't expect a 2K Vetrano 2B to regular compete with a multi-grouphead Synesso or La Marzocco costing ten times as much or more. But I do expect it to get me a lot closer once I've dialed in everything. And all the videos I've seen online from people using machines in the Duetto/Vetrano/Vivaldi/R58 class show me that it can be done.

So this is a roundabout way of me reaffirming: get the best brewing and steaming (if that's important to you) machine you can. Then figure out volumetric later. If it's a choice between the exact machine you want, with and without volumetric, then the choice is easy (i.e. La Marzocco GS/3 with and without volumetric). However if you find you have to go to completely different manufacturers and even go from a dual boiler to an HX machine, then you really need to consider if the volumetric feature is enough to move you away from something like the Vetrano 2B which according to you (this is to DeanOK) ticks off so many of the checkboxes you're looking for in a machine outside of volumetric dosing.

Good luck!
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jwoodyu
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jwoodyu
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Espresso: Allex Duetto II
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Posted Mon Aug 12, 2013, 8:18am
Subject: Re: Vetrano 2B vs volumetric (I am second guessing myself)
 

Everyone pumps what they have and thinks features they don't have are no big deal  It cracks me up to hear them  preach how what they don't have is no better than what they do have until they switch sides and their tune changes. Doserless vs Doser, Semi vs Autmatic or HX vs DB and the song goes on and on.

For my part I am happy with my Semi, DB, E-61 and doser Major.

 
Yes i have a reason for leaving SCG off my list, yes it is my opinion, yes it is subjective as opinions are by definition, no don't start a flame war because you disagree.
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DeanOK
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DeanOK
Joined: 24 Sep 2012
Posts: 715
Location: OK
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: QM Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Vario W
Posted Mon Aug 12, 2013, 8:26am
Subject: Re: Vetrano 2B vs volumetric (I am second guessing myself)
 

CarloM Said:

Thanks for sharing your experience frcn. ....there's still a sizable gap between my best extraction and the ones that I get from Intelligentsia/Luxxe.......

Posted August 12, 2013 link

I feel your pain. This morning I made a near textbook perfect shot based on time, and yield. It took about 5 seconds for the first drop after pump started, crema started to appear early in the process. I had voluminous amounts of crema, no blonding, 13 day old coffee... but I still felt like I didn't have as good of shot as I should have.
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CarloM
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Joined: 1 Apr 2013
Posts: 332
Location: Los Angeles
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Vetrano V2B
Grinder: Mazzer Mini-E Type A, SJ...
Drip: Toddy
Posted Mon Aug 12, 2013, 8:53am
Subject: Re: Vetrano 2B vs volumetric (I am second guessing myself)
 

jwoodyu Said:

Everyone pumps what they have and thinks features they don't have are no big deal  It cracks me up to hear them  preach how what they don't have is no better than what they do have until they switch sides and their tune changes. Doserless vs Doser, Semi vs Autmatic or HX vs DB and the song goes on and on.

For my part I am happy with my Semi, DB, E-61 and doser Major.

Posted August 12, 2013 link

Hope you're not lumping me in with "everyone" because the whole reason I'm buying a V2B is to go after what I don't. And in case you didn't see my other posts, I was trained on volumetric and used it for work for many years so I know what that side of the fence presents. Volumetric is a convenience feature. For me, not an important one, but for others, I can see where they'd want it.

Dean - yep you know exactly what I'm talking about. ;)

The one thing I haven't got my Silvia to do is get that thick, syrupy extraction. I can get it to two oz. in 25 seconds, but it is more of a thinner stream than what I see the LM/Synesso/etc. pull. I'm guessing at this point its probably due to the little Ulka pump in the Silvia vs. the more powerful rotary pumps of those machines (not to mention proper constant pressure, better dispersion screens, etc.).
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