Our Valued Sponsor
OpinionsConsumer ReviewsGuides and How TosCoffeeGeek ReviewsResourcesForums
Espresso: Espresso Machines
Another DB Quickmill
Home Espresso Machines
Watch videos with Gail & Kat, Rocket, Jura Capresso, Saeco, Rancilio, Quick Mill, Nespresso
www.seattlecoffeegear.com
 
Not Logged in: Log In to Postlog in
New Topics updated topics   New Posts new posts   Unanswered Posts new unanswered  
Search Discussion Board search   Discussion Board FAQ faq   Signup sign up  
Discussions > Espresso > Machines > Another DB...  
view previous topic | view next topic | view all topics
showing page 128 of 148 first page | last page previous page | next page
Author Messages
barooo
Senior Member


Joined: 10 Mar 2005
Posts: 1
Location: Chicago
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Mon Sep 30, 2013, 12:27pm
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

I just got one of these machines myself over the weekend (it was after the last machine from CCS; mine had a little cosmetic damage and was sold as refurbished, or whatever the correct term would be...  It has a full warranty but wasn't sold as "new").

So far so good, mostly, but a couple of questions.

  1.  Microfoam...  Is anyone else having this specific problem: My foam looks good until I shut down the steam, but when I close the steam valve I get a bunch of large bubbles.  I can swirl them away, mostly, but it's not mirror-shiny afterwards).
  2.  Logistics: How do you deal with refilling such a heavy machine when it's under cabinets.  What's the best place to grab it to turn it around on the counter?  I get a little bit of flex in the panels, which seems pretty normal, but multiplied by a few thousand times I don't want to wear anything out prematurely.  I don't really have room to put it on a cart and plumb-in isn't an option at the moment.

I apologize if #1 was addressed earlier, I've seen a lot of microfoam discussion, but not this specifically.
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
DavecUK
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Posts: 1,325
Location: UK
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Mon Sep 30, 2013, 12:53pm
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

Tonyv138 Said:

Sounds great Dave. I'll take the machine to 20A mode. My house is set up for that, just do not want to be that way permanently, as there are other appliences on the cirquit.

Thanks!

Posted September 30, 2013 link

Now I'm just sort of totally confused, I can't see it matters what mode you are in, your brew boiler heating element is what it is? I "think" 9but I could be wrong) the PID timeslices between the 2 loops regardless of whether the PID is set to brew or steam boiler priority? It is just if you want to get a stable PID reading do it with the steam boiler off. Later you can experiment and see if it's stable with the steam boiler on, minor instability during the first 10 minutes of steam boiler operation is not significant, because it won't affect brew temperature. After that, you will have turned the steam boiler off anyway. You might not even get any instability when you turn the steam boiler on

I just can't remember what size heating element you have in the US, if it's smaller, then it might make a marginal difference to your settings....that's all.

Note, I haven't tested it in brew priority mode (not relevant in the UK), so I only think the Gicar PID timeslices regardless of mode, based on a distant memory of the Duetto models some years ago, when I did a specific test. this one with revised firmware may not?
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
CurtG
Senior Member


Joined: 25 Oct 2011
Posts: 25
Location: San Diego
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill V2B
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Vac Pot: Hario Nouveau Syphon
Posted Mon Sep 30, 2013, 2:23pm
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

Tonyv138 Said:

Was doing more observing today. It is possible that everything is working as designed. V2B was set up with all PID parms are set to those in manual, except I1=0. I1=0 is how CCS sent the machine to me. That includes T1 = 203 and  T2 = 255.
...
I would be curios to see if anyone could observe their V2B in a similar set up and provide their input. If I do not heear back, i'll call tech dept tomorrow to verify, per Dave's advise.

Posted September 29, 2013 link

Hi all, first time post for a new V2B owner.  Thanks to everyone who posts here at CG and especially on this thread.

My V2B also came from CCS with I1=0, different than either version of the online manual.  I think it also had T2 set to 252, but that could have just been me fiddling before I documented current settings PID settings.

I also noticed that putting I1 to the CCS manual recommendations upset the balance.  So, we were running a PD controller after all.  I1=0 is equivalent to I1=infinity, so changing it to 0.05 is actually a big change.

Here's my experiment from this weekend and some very general descriptions as I understand them for PID settings:
Set I1 and D1 to 0 to make it a pure P controller.  I found that P of 0.6 got me very close to a steady temp without overshoots.  A P value larger than this will tend to pass the set point (SP) on its way up on a straight Proportional controller and temp tends to bounce around.  (I eventually ended on 1.5 even though this was unstable as a P only setting).  "P" adjusts power based on the amount of error: the farther away from SP, the more power is applied.

P alone, when set correctly, should get a very steady temp, but it will never reach the SP (in the V2B's case, it is very close due to the small insulated boiler).  So that is why we use "I".  It can boost the power a bit to get the measured value up to the SP.  If we set that from 0 to 0.05 then we see oscillation, but now it's around the SP.  "I" adjusts power based on the time of the error: the longer we have had the undershoot error, the more power is applied.

So, if we have a PI controller that gets to SP but oscillates around SP too far, we need a third factor: a damping value.  That's what D is used for.  In our case with P and "I" set per CCS manual, what we need to get the oscillation under control is a higher D.  CCS has D set as 1.5, but I'm running 5.0 right now after I set "I" away from 0 to 0.05.  "D" adjusts power based on the rate of change: if the temp is moving quickly, the power is adjusted to slow the movement down.

Incidentally, does anyone else notice a similarity to my values?  Yep, DavecUK's suggestions are very close to this.  Dave is a wealth of knowledge and a great boon for us V2B owners!

So then, why would we want to use these settings instead of what they were set at: P=1.5, I=0, D=1.5?  Without an "I" value set, we do not get a fast reaction to changes.  Changes such as cold water being introduced as you brew.  That will be my next test: set to original, wait for steady state, and see how long it takes to recover after x-oz of room temp water are pulled from the reservoir.  Then, change to modified values, wait for steady state, pull the same amount of hot water out and see how long it takes to get to steady state.  In this case, I will determine that steady state is +-1 degree F.

I am not an expert with PID variables, I just used some online tutorials and decided to see what would happen with simple changes.  Documenting the current values first means that I could always get back to them if what I come up with doesn't work.

The last thing I will suggest is to question your grouphead offset E1.  I bought 5lbs of Red Bird Espresso for "break-in" (as Coffeenoobie suggested to another poster) and I thought I was getting more bitter flavors than I expected.  So, each day I lowered my temp until I got to sour (which I still have a hard time differentiating sometimes).  After that I took a guess that what I found for my best temp was closer to the 198=201 that RB recommends and I adjusted my E1 based on that.  Finally, just to double check, I went through DavecUK's test for group offset, which to my surprise came out exactly to what I had set my new E1.  Nice to get confirmation!  Thanks again Dave.
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
CarloM
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Apr 2013
Posts: 306
Location: Los Angeles
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Vetrano V2B
Grinder: Mazzer Mini-E Type A, SJ...
Drip: Toddy
Posted Mon Sep 30, 2013, 2:49pm
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

Wow! Thanks Dave for sharing your PID values, and thanks Curt for sharing yours as well! Your post was extremely informative. I'm thinking of changing my PID values to more closely match yours and Dave's and see what happens.

I have a couple of questions:
For Curt: did you change your PID settings for the steam boiler (P2, I2, D2) to match Dave's yet? If so did you notice any improvement in steaming?

For Dave: What does the B1 and B2 settings control? Your values are B1=10 and B2=5, the U.S./CCS values are 10/6/
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
CurtG
Senior Member


Joined: 25 Oct 2011
Posts: 25
Location: San Diego
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Quick Mill V2B
Grinder: Baratza Vario
Vac Pot: Hario Nouveau Syphon
Posted Mon Sep 30, 2013, 3:59pm
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

CarloM Said:

For Curt: did you change your PID settings for the steam boiler (P2, I2, D2) to match Dave's yet? If so did you notice any improvement in steaming?

Posted September 30, 2013 link

I did not work with the steam boiler yet.  Not being able to see the actual PID temp reading (just the pressure on the gauge) means I'm a little hesitant to make big changes there.  But, I don't think Dave's changes are very large; P2 from 1.5 to 3.0 by itself means you will basically have full heat until you reach your T2 at which point heat will be cut completely.  Then changing D2 from 1.5 to 5.0 should keep oscillation down.  "I" is not needed because reaching the exact set point is not as important as speed to steady state and recovery time.
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
DavecUK
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Posts: 1,325
Location: UK
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Mon Sep 30, 2013, 4:21pm
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

CarloM Said:

For Dave: What does the B1 and B2 settings control? Your values are B1=10 and B2=5, the U.S./CCS values are 10/6/

Posted September 30, 2013 link

Think of it as the width of the PID control band (it's in units not in C or F, or at least it doesn't appear to be). It's the band over which the PID algorithm operates, Large for the brew boiler to prevent overshoots and give control over a wider part of the temperature scale. For the steam boiler you want a much smaller band, because you only want the controller doing stuff when you are very near to the setpoint.

What you may not realise is that the Gicar unit is inherently a PID, you cannot turn the PIDiness off completely, you can only fine tune it. So you cannot make it function as a pure Proportional controller, it will still have some PIDiness about it. The individual PID parameters simply modify that inherent PIDiness. Hence the band control was an easy way for Gicar to make the thing act more like a pressurestat on the steam boiler...by limiting the PIDyiness to a very narrow range of temperature and of course setting no Integral. Now I'm working from memory here, but I think a band much lower than 5 made it a little more unstable than I would like, so I settled on 5 as being a lowest safe value (in my opinion), giving the desired performance.

Now I haven't really explained this all very well, but I don't normally bother going into even this level of detail and certainly not the hours of testing with different coffees and roasts (my own roasts), plus comparisons with other machines (e.g. Duetto and HX's) I do at home. It's why I spend 3 weeks or more reviewing machines and much longer on this. When the revised PID was sent to me (with separate steaming parameters), I spent days getting it right. I've sat silently whilst people are using whatever values they want to use (especially offset values). Finally I see someone "break away from the herd"....see CurtG post.

In no way would I want to influence people who have bought machines from another retailer, or argue with scace temperatures, or various retailer PID settings, it's not my place to do so. All UK machines come set my way, my machine is set my way....that's the way I like it. You have to experiment and decide how you like your machine. My PID is pretty much set so it's indicated value is: that temperature at which the first 20cc of water hits the top of the puck AFTER a 1oz stabilisation flush and a 15-20 ish second wait (for grinding, tamping and locking the PF in). note I say top of puck, not the middle. I set this using observation and the laws of physics after correcting for external pressure. This calibrates me accurately for 100C (well boiling point actually, not the same thing), experience tells me that the offset at that point can be 1C lower than at 92C, hence the 11 - 12 offset.

Before I used this method, I validated it for the Duetto DB on many destructive tests using fast acting thermocouples as well as a double check with some very accurate and very fast acting conventional thermometry and various home made devices on the group. In addition further tests made into insulated containers with adjustments made for heat loss in a specified volume of water at a given temp, falling a given distance in a recorded environmental temperature. Overall 3 different types of experiment to come to the same result from 3 different approaches. The Vetrano 2B is pretty much the same as the Duetto in it's boiler size, thermosyphon bore and length of pipes. There are some differences in the water paths e.g. fill point and boiler takeoffs, but nothing to really invalidate the temperature setting stuff. You have to remember that there is also a temperature and pressure relationship going on. Pressure in the portafilter continually changing during the extraction. initially, as the coffee bed wets, then later as the extraction proceeds. What you see on the pressure gauge doesn't fully reflect the pressure going on in the coffee puck and it's right that it shouldn't. The gauge is a guide to the pressure head the pump should be capable of achieving. It does mean however that at the top of the puck, as the pressure rises, the temperature will fall less, then before, plus the whole system is warmer. Lastly puck depth has an influence on taste, the flatter puck of the single, I have always felt produces a very different shot to the deeper puck of the Double....and I wouldn't even bother with a Triple basket (yuck).

What is the temperature exactly on coffee during an extraction....I don't know, and I'll take a pretty safe bet no one else does either. What I do know is that it changes during the shot and is also influenced by where it is measured. The best we can hope for is to get a consistent starting point, then let the E61 do the rest. Whether by design, or simply dumb luck.....it's a job the E61 does quite well (perhaps nearly 8lbs of brass does that). Lastly the final test, the most important test is TASTE. Not just as an espresso, but as a long drink. here it's quite simple, I still don't know exactly what the temperature is...I think I do, but for people who know me...I don't "know", it used to bother me years ago, but not now. I picked up over the years that below 92, it gets a bit sour, above 97 it gets a bit bitter. We come to the taste. I use 3 or 4 coffees I've a lot of experience with (differences are marked by the way, one coffee can be a LOT sweeter than another). I extract them across the range of temperatures and if at 91 indicated it's sour and at 97 indicated it's bitter, with a changing range in between...I'm happy. if it's not, I tweak the offset as required (normally +/-1C only) for a decent result across the 91-97C range. it's a bit like the first star wars movie, but with "trust your taste", instead of the force.

Some of you now may start trying lower temperatures, until you start to taste sourness, if that's at 89 or 90, then perhaps your offset is a bit high...does it matter, no, that's the whole point of being able to adjust temperature.....experiment until it tastes good. if you want to adjust offset, then fine, but it will all work perfectly well without worrying about adjusting it...it's just that my 93 and your 93 and his 93 might be different!
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
DeanOK
Senior Member
DeanOK
Joined: 24 Sep 2012
Posts: 620
Location: OK
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: QM Vetrano 2B
Grinder: Vario W
Posted Mon Sep 30, 2013, 5:03pm
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

DavecUK Said:

What is the temperature exactly on coffee during an extraction....

Posted September 30, 2013 link

Somewhere buried in this thread I measured my V2B with a scace type device that I made that I have a lot of confidence in. With a warming flush, I was able to get temperatures within 2F of the display temperature using CCS's default offset. I calibrated my measurement device in boiling water and allowed for my elevation. My device is a low mass K thermocouple device that reacts very quickly and I have it installed in a blind basket that is insulated with a layer of silicone and flow is controlled with a needle valve
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
CarloM
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Apr 2013
Posts: 306
Location: Los Angeles
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Vetrano V2B
Grinder: Mazzer Mini-E Type A, SJ...
Drip: Toddy
Posted Mon Sep 30, 2013, 5:24pm
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

Thanks Dave and Curt. I'm definitely going to try and be a little bit experimental with my PID settings. I'll carefully write down the values of my current settings so I can restore if needed (even created me a little Excel sheet) :)

I am not going to worry too much about offset, which I do think is a little high. I've gotten to the point where 202 yields a great tasting espresso to me, so even if the "actual" temperature is between 197-200 depending on how "off" the 27F offset is, that's still well within what is recommended for Black Cat. And as long as what's in the cup tastes great, then I'm not going to worry about a 2-5F offset difference since I'm pretty much set on Black Cat now that I've tried over a dozen boutique espresso roasts and keep coming back to this one.
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
gz20tt
Senior Member


Joined: 17 Sep 2003
Posts: 93
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Gaggia Classic
Grinder: Mazzer Super Jolly
Vac Pot: Bodum
Posted Mon Sep 30, 2013, 5:46pm
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

DavecUK Said:

What is the temperature exactly on coffee during an extraction....I don't know, and I'll take a pretty safe bet no one else does either. What I do know is that it changes during the shot and is also influenced by where it is measured. The best we can hope for is to get a consistent starting point, then let the E61 do the rest. Whether by design, or simply dumb luck.....it's a job the E61 does quite well (perhaps nearly 8lbs of brass does that). Lastly the final test, the most important test is TASTE. Not just as an espresso, but as a long drink. here it's quite simple, I still don't know exactly what the temperature is...I think I do, but for people who know me...I don't "know", it used to bother me years ago, but not now. I picked up over the years that below 92, it gets a bit sour, above 97 it gets a bit bitter. We come to the taste. I use 3 or 4 coffees I've a lot of experience with (differences are marked by the way, one coffee can be a LOT sweeter than another). I extract them across the range of temperatures and if at 91 indicated it's sour and at 97 indicated it's bitter, with a changing range in between...I'm happy. if it's not, I tweak the offset as required (normally +/-1C only) for a decent result across the 91-97C range. it's a bit like the first star wars movie, but with "trust your taste", instead of the force.

Some of you now may start trying lower temperatures, until you start to taste sourness, if that's at 89 or 90, then perhaps your offset is a bit high...does it matter, no, that's the whole point of being able to adjust temperature.....experiment until it tastes good. if you want to adjust offset, then fine, but it will all work perfectly well without worrying about adjusting it...it's just that my 93 and your 93 and his 93 might be different!

Posted September 30, 2013 link

THIS^
I think Dave and I discussed this a few pages back.
The amount of offset and the displayed temperature don't actually matter all that much at the end of the day.
All you need to know is that for a particular coffee on your machine at your house it works best at a setting of XXoC/F (Once dose and grind are correct)
You could set your offset to 50 - and aside from then having to adjust your set point by a similar amount - the end product will be the same.
"for that particular coffee on your machine at your house it works best at a setting of XXoC/F"

The beauty of a PID E61 for me is that allows for fine adjustment and precision and repeatability of the starting point with no need to play around with cycling/flush-n-go etc and the ability to adjust that start point to get the best taste for you. The E61 does it's magic of preinfusion and smoothing out of temperature spikes due to it's mass and we end up with a tasty product.

As to the temperature of coffee during extraction - I agree - you don't know. There was something floating around the web years ago with someone (illy?) trying to make a clear basket and portafilter to try and see what was happening to a puck during extraction and then perhaps try and measure the temp in various areas of that puck based on when it was wetted during the extraction. I'd also hazard to guess that the temperature of the stream of coffee as it comes out will vary over the course of the extraction too. Do I care? - not really - I'm happy with the results as is - the serendipitous outcome of the physics of the E61 brew process.

Oh - and I did get mine tested with a calibrated Scace device on setup. We did adjust the offset by 1oC - from 15 to 16 - but my technician decided it wasn't worth trying to zone in any further. We knew it was stable and that was enough. I'd be better off playing with the set point at home to suit the coffee.
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
CarloM
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Apr 2013
Posts: 306
Location: Los Angeles
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Vetrano V2B
Grinder: Mazzer Mini-E Type A, SJ...
Drip: Toddy
Posted Mon Sep 30, 2013, 6:38pm
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

Thanks gz20tt. Interesting that your offset was 15-16C, when it was 15C = 27F, which is exactly where CCS set it. And I agree, taste in cup is king. I am not (and probably will not) adjust my offset differently from CCS. I've already dialed in my Black Cat to 202 on my machine. Whatever the real temp in the puck is, I don't care, as long as I now I get the perfect balance of sweetness and no sourness or bitterness at that temp.

I am experimenting though with different PID settings. I just dialed in Dave's to see what will happen, now to wait for the 45 minutes or so to see the effects. Luckily, I have laundry to do. :D
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
showing page 128 of 148 first page | last page previous page | next page
view previous topic | view next topic | view all topics
Discussions > Espresso > Machines > Another DB...  
New Topics updated topics   New Posts new posts   Unanswered Posts new unanswered     Search Discussion Board search   Discussion Board FAQ faq   Signup sign up  
Not Logged in: Log In to Postlog in
Discussions Quick Jump:
Symbols: New Posts= New Posts since your last visit      No New Posts= No New Posts since last visit     Go to most recent post= Newest post
Forum Rules:
No profanity, illegal acts or personal attacks will be tolerated in these discussion boards.
No commercial posting of any nature will be tolerated; only private sales by private individuals, in the "Buy and Sell" forum.
No SEO style postings will be tolerated. SEO related posts will result in immediate ban from CoffeeGeek.
No cross posting allowed - do not post your topic to more than one forum, nor repost a topic to the same forum.
Who Can Read The Forum? Anyone can read posts in these discussion boards.
Who Can Post New Topics? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post new topics.
Who Can Post Replies? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post replies.
Can Photos be posted? Anyone can post photos in their new topics or replies.
Who can change or delete posts? Any CoffeeGeek member can edit their own posts. Only moderators can delete posts.
Probationary Period: If you are a new signup for CoffeeGeek, you cannot promote, endorse, criticise or otherwise post an unsolicited endorsement for any company, product or service in your first five postings.
Italian Biscotti Cookies
Premium artisan quality Italian Biscotti cookies. Many flavors!
www.espressozone.com
Home | Opinions | Consumer Reviews | Guides & How Tos | CoffeeGeek Reviews | Resources | Forums | Contact Us
CoffeeGeek.com, CoffeeGeek, and Coffee Geek, along with all associated content & images are copyright ©2000-2014 by Mark Prince, all rights reserved, unless otherwise indicated. Content, code, and images may not be reused without permission. Usage of this website signifies agreement with our Terms and Conditions. (0.437345027924)
Privacy Policy | Copyright Info | Terms and Conditions | CoffeeGeek Advertisers | RSS | Find us on Google+