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Another DB Quickmill
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cuznvin
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Joined: 6 Oct 2011
Posts: 656
Location: NY
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Spaziale Mini Vivaldi II
Grinder: MACAP M4 Stepless /Baratza...
Drip: YouBrew
Posted Wed Jul 24, 2013, 11:07am
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

DeanOK Said:

Wow! That is really low. I think there was a number being thrown out in a thread a few weeks ago that anything below 50 PPM was ok. I think you just as well say distilled water if 3 PPM or less is the goal. If I remember correctly my municipal water runs 150-200.

Posted July 24, 2013 link

3 part per gallon

Per Mary

Vinny,

We recommend the water you use have no more than 3 grains of hardness per gallon, the machine will come with test strips.

Mary
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CarloM
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Joined: 1 Apr 2013
Posts: 319
Location: Los Angeles
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Vetrano V2B
Grinder: Mazzer Mini-E Type A, SJ...
Drip: Toddy
Posted Wed Jul 24, 2013, 11:08am
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

I think CCS recommends less than 3 grains of hardness, not 3ppm (which would essentially be pure water). I have a hard time getting definitive grain to PPM equivalent but here's a site I found: http://www.fcwa.org/water/hardness.htm

Also wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grains_per_gallon
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cuznvin
Senior Member


Joined: 6 Oct 2011
Posts: 656
Location: NY
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Spaziale Mini Vivaldi II
Grinder: MACAP M4 Stepless /Baratza...
Drip: YouBrew
Posted Wed Jul 24, 2013, 11:11am
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

DeanOK Said:

Wow! That is really low. I think there was a number being thrown out in a thread a few weeks ago that anything below 50 PPM was ok. I think you just as well say distilled water if 3 PPM or less is the goal. If I remember correctly my municipal water runs 150-200.

Posted July 24, 2013 link

Looks like the 50 ppm number is correct...
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1stline
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1stline
Joined: 24 Jan 2002
Posts: 491
Location: Freehold, NJ USA
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: Undisclosed
Grinder: Indisclosed
Vac Pot: Bodum Electric
Drip: None
Roaster: None
Posted Wed Jul 24, 2013, 12:30pm
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

cuznvin Said:

I was about to buy the Technika, BUT when I found out the OPV valve and vacuum breaker wasnt set up to drain to the drip tray and would spray inside the machine, I changed my mind. It is a simple thing to do, yet ECM chose not to do this.. Why, i dont now. I also wasnt too comfortable with the restocking fee @ 1st line  even though there is a very slim chance I would return it.. I still like the technika a lot.

Posted July 23, 2013 link

Sorry, I normally do not bud into nor like to hijack others' threads, unless there is MIS-information.

I am not sure who the source is for this information. I would be interested to know 'who' as you have been given some partially true and partially false information.

RE: OPV
First, where would the OPV hose connect to if there are no hoses in the reservoir? In most cases, the OPV will connect to a return hose to the reservoir (usually tank models only), a hose to the drip tray, or a hose "T'd" to the reservoir feeder hose.

Just so there are no misconceptions, the ECM Technika machine's OPV drains to the drip tray - this has to happen because there is direct plumb capability. On the Barista model, it does cycle back through the water source. In both cases, it is cold water that passes through the OPV, not hot water.

RE: Vacuum Breaker Valve
Second, the vacuum breaker spits out very, very little water, if any. And the minute amount, if any, does evaporate quickly because the boiler wall is usually very hot. I think you mentioned over the phone that you had an Isomac TEA or Millenium for several years. Did you have any issues with the bleeder valve dripping onto the brain unit which is located directly below the boiler?

For the record, the Technika has a higher grade bleeder valve as already shown. The Barista has a standard one found on many machines.

As another poster mentioned, I would not get caught up in the vacuum breaker valve draining to the drip tray as a decision maker. We have sold thousands of different heat exchange machines over the last 15 years, and there are certainly more important factors than this.

RE: Returns
As I mentioned to you over the phone...

a)  our products are priced competitively --- one gets more features for the price - this offers better value. We want serious customers and not those that say it is too difficult to make espresso. I will be frank... we do not want those having a party over the weekend to show off their espresso machine only to call on a Monday to return it.

b) before 2013, we would not accept returns on semi-commercial nor commercial equipment - please note that this is typical industry standard. The reason is that the stuff works. We had and have a damage policy for serious damages. For less serious damages, we would send replacement parts (ie body, portafilter, etc). There was a thread last year, where coffeegeek members suggested going to a restocking fee structure and we listened. This would only 'penalize' those who returned equipment. It covers the cost for checking and testing the equipment as well as selling it at a discounted price. This is one way dealers can keep prices low on select products. Why do you think Best Buy has a restocking fee on a lot of low priced select items? the reason is that the savings in associated return costs is passed on to the customer.

The keyword here is cost. On open door return policies, who would you think pays for returns? The consumer does. How? In higher prices. In essence, the cost is shared across all consumers for that product. So, there are three scenarios: no returns, returns with a restocking fee, or returns without a restocking fee and higher prices. Now, if 1st-line raised the price of the Tecnika to its equivalent competitor machine's price (a few hundred dollars more at the time of this writing) and we removed the restocking fee, would this still make the machine attractive to you? Do you think you can lower prices on other products if the return policy was changed by the vendor? Just to note, all these machines from European manufacturers are not returned to them, so they have no cost for returns.

To reiterate, my purpose on this post was to clarify information. Thanks for reading and understanding.

 
Sincerely,
Jim Piccinich
Business Partner
1st-line Equipment, LLC
www.1st-line.com

Follow us on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/1stline
Twitter: http://twitter.com/1stline
Blog: http://1st-line.blogspot.com/
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cuznvin
Senior Member


Joined: 6 Oct 2011
Posts: 656
Location: NY
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Spaziale Mini Vivaldi II
Grinder: MACAP M4 Stepless /Baratza...
Drip: YouBrew
Posted Wed Jul 24, 2013, 12:37pm
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

1stline Said:

Sorry, I normally do not bud into nor like to hijack others' threads, unless there is MIS-information.

I am not sure who the source is for this information. I would be interested to know 'who' as you have been given some partially true and partially false information.

RE: OPV
First, where would the OPV hose connect to if there are no hoses in the reservoir? In most cases, the OPV will connect to a return hose to the reservoir (usually tank models only), a hose to the drip tray, or a hose "T'd" to the reservoir feeder hose.

Just so there are no misconceptions, the ECM Technika machine's OPV drains to the drip tray - this has to happen because there is direct plumb capability. On the Barista model, it does cycle back through the water source. In both cases, it is cold water that passes through the OPV, not hot water.

RE: Vacuum Breaker Valve
Second, the vacuum breaker spits out very, very little water, if any. And the minute amount, if any, does evaporate quickly because the boiler wall is usually very hot. I think you mentioned over the phone that you had an Isomac TEA or Millenium for several years. Did you have any issues with the bleeder valve dripping onto the brain unit which is located directly below the boiler?

For the record, the Technika has a higher grade bleeder valve as already shown. The Barista has a standard one found on many machines.

As another poster mentioned, I would not get caught up in the vacuum breaker valve draining to the drip tray as a decision maker. We have sold thousands of different heat exchange machines over the last 15 years, and there are certainly more important factors than this.

RE: Returns
As I mentioned to you over the phone...

a)  our products are priced competitively --- one gets more features for the price - this offers better value. We want serious customers and not those that say it is too difficult to make espresso. I will be frank... we do not want those having a party over the weekend to show off their espresso machine only to call on a Monday to return it.

b) before 2013, we would not accept returns on semi-commercial nor commercial equipment - please note that this is typical industry standard. The reason is that the stuff works. We had and have a damage policy for serious damages. For less serious damages, we would send replacement parts (ie body, portafilter, etc). There was a thread last year, where coffeegeek members suggested going to a restocking fee structure and we listened. This would only 'penalize' those who returned equipment. It covers the cost for checking and testing the equipment as well as selling it at a discounted price. This is one way dealers can keep prices low on select products. Why do you think Best Buy has a restocking fee on a lot of low priced select items? the reason is that the savings in associated return costs is passed on to the customer.

The keyword here is cost. On open door return policies, who would you think pays for returns? The consumer does. How? In higher prices. In essence, the cost is shared across all consumers for that product. So, there are three scenarios: no returns, returns with a restocking fee, or returns without a restocking fee and higher prices. Now, if 1st-line raised the price of the Tecnika to its equivalent competitor machine's price (a few hundred dollars more at the time of this writing) and we removed the restocking fee, would this still make the machine attractive to you? Do you think you can lower prices on other products if the return policy was changed by the vendor? Just to note, all these machines from European manufacturers are not returned to them, so they have no cost for returns.

To reiterate, my purpose on this post was to clarify information. Thanks for reading and understanding.

Posted July 24, 2013 link

You have me confused with someone else because I never had an espresso machine....and still dont..
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cuznvin
Senior Member


Joined: 6 Oct 2011
Posts: 656
Location: NY
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: La Spaziale Mini Vivaldi II
Grinder: MACAP M4 Stepless /Baratza...
Drip: YouBrew
Posted Wed Jul 24, 2013, 12:52pm
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

1stline Said:

Sorry, I normally do not bud into nor like to hijack others' threads, unless there is MIS-information.

I am not sure who the source is for this information. I would be interested to know 'who' as you have been given some partially true and partially false information.

RE: OPV
First, where would the OPV hose connect to if there are no hoses in the reservoir? In most cases, the OPV will connect to a return hose to the reservoir (usually tank models only), a hose to the drip tray, or a hose "T'd" to the reservoir feeder hose.

Just so there are no misconceptions, the ECM Technika machine's OPV drains to the drip tray - this has to happen because there is direct plumb capability. On the Barista model, it does cycle back through the water source. In both cases, it is cold water that passes through the OPV, not hot water.

RE: Vacuum Breaker Valve
Second, the vacuum breaker spits out very, very little water, if any. And the minute amount, if any, does evaporate quickly because the boiler wall is usually very hot. I think you mentioned over the phone that you had an Isomac TEA or Millenium for several years. Did you have any issues with the bleeder valve dripping onto the brain unit which is located directly below the boiler?

For the record, the Technika has a higher grade bleeder valve as already shown. The Barista has a standard one found on many machines.

As another poster mentioned, I would not get caught up in the vacuum breaker valve draining to the drip tray as a decision maker. We have sold thousands of different heat exchange machines over the last 15 years, and there are certainly more important factors than this.

RE: Returns
As I mentioned to you over the phone...

a)  our products are priced competitively --- one gets more features for the price - this offers better value. We want serious customers and not those that say it is too difficult to make espresso. I will be frank... we do not want those having a party over the weekend to show off their espresso machine only to call on a Monday to return it.

b) before 2013, we would not accept returns on semi-commercial nor commercial equipment - please note that this is typical industry standard. The reason is that the stuff works. We had and have a damage policy for serious damages. For less serious damages, we would send replacement parts (ie body, portafilter, etc). There was a thread last year, where coffeegeek members suggested going to a restocking fee structure and we listened. This would only 'penalize' those who returned equipment. It covers the cost for checking and testing the equipment as well as selling it at a discounted price. This is one way dealers can keep prices low on select products. Why do you think Best Buy has a restocking fee on a lot of low priced select items? the reason is that the savings in associated return costs is passed on to the customer.

The keyword here is cost. On open door return policies, who would you think pays for returns? The consumer does. How? In higher prices. In essence, the cost is shared across all consumers for that product. So, there are three scenarios: no returns, returns with a restocking fee, or returns without a restocking fee and higher prices. Now, if 1st-line raised the price of the Tecnika to its equivalent competitor machine's price (a few hundred dollars more at the time of this writing) and we removed the restocking fee, would this still make the machine attractive to you? Do you think you can lower prices on other products if the return policy was changed by the vendor? Just to note, all these machines from European manufacturers are not returned to them, so they have no cost for returns.

To reiterate, my purpose on this post was to clarify information. Thanks for reading and understanding.

Posted July 24, 2013 link

I do have a question though.. The boiler in the Technika is insulated and horizontal. you say the boiler wall is usually very hot and the water will evaporate because of this heat, but not if its insulated, correct?
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CarloM
Senior Member


Joined: 1 Apr 2013
Posts: 319
Location: Los Angeles
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Vetrano V2B
Grinder: Mazzer Mini-E Type A, SJ...
Drip: Toddy
Posted Wed Jul 24, 2013, 1:09pm
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

germantownrob Said:

Not Dave and my answer will not be as good as his.

Yes descaling should happen those these drain plugs. The steam boiler is where scale is going to occur at 255f+ temps. Scale mostly occurs above the water line so overfilling the boiler is preferable. The brew boiler at 205f or less is going to take a lot longer to have any scale and that will be noticed when taking the E-61 group apart for maintenance so those parts can be cleaned proper off the machine and the brew boiler descaled and drained from the plug. A hell of a lot easier this way then pumping solution through everything and then flushing to get rid of it all.

I was always planing on filtering my water and using a softener cartridge to eliminate minerals but I had a mental shut down on this. I was not happy with the end results of using a softener, minerals needed to be added back to get things to taste proper to me, so I have not found the solution I want to use for plumbing in my Duetto. However by softening your water below scale levels does mean you won't have to worry about descaling your machine.

Posted July 24, 2013 link

Thanks germantownRob,

One question: how does one "overfill" the boiler to make sure that the solution gets to all the scale? I don't know how to do it on my Silvia, and I likely won't know how to do it when my Vetrano 2B comes in, unless it comes with instructions.

Thanks!
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DavecUK
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Posts: 1,380
Location: UK
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Wed Jul 24, 2013, 1:47pm
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

CarloM Said:

DavecUK,

I think in the CCS video, Mary showed that the US is getting the easy drain boiler. Their pre-production model had it, so I'm going to assume that their production model will as well. Is that what you meant in your post about the order of probability and the US version?

Some other questions for Dave, and anyone else knowledgeable:
Does the easy-drain boiler help in descaling? When you descale should the boiler be drained through those holes rather than through the brew group like I currently do for my Silvia?
For those who will be using the water tank should we invest in a water softening filter? I plan to use local (L.A.) bottled water where the company has published the PPM of the minerals online and using test strips to confirm its softness, but should I install a water softener in addition to that? Will it increase the life of the machine?

Posted July 24, 2013 link

Yes to first point...UK version has the system I specifically specified and drew up for QM (we pay extra for that), US version has the one CC uses on a few QM machines already and the Australian version....dunno, mebbe wont have anything?

Descaling - As per Germantown Robs post

To the person who asked if I had a version 3 duetto...I have tested/reviewed all the versions, but no, I have number 0001, the first one ever made about 2 months before general production began, it was the pre-production prototype. Mine has the old PID, although I do have a newer version, pressurstat (which I prefer rather than the current duetto PIDs controlling the steam boiler), electronic low water detection (no spring platform), 33% larger internal water tank, better insulation than standard and extra ventilation around the PID (the original PID I had 6 years ago is still working). Special preheat system specifically designed by me for Izzo (and still used today), but mine is modified further and lastly modified steam and hot water wands with extra tips. So yeah, mine does things the current versions don't....and I still swapped for the QM. Well swapped is an untrue statement, I still have my Duetto, won't ever sell it, but it is going into storage.

The Duetto has been through several slight redesign iterations, but they would have done better to concentrate on the important stuff, rather than too much of the small stuff that increased costs.....my opinion!

to the person considering selling their Duetto to get the QM........don't, unless your one of those people who likes a new car every now and then, just because you like a new car. Apart from one thing, the espresso and other drinks from
the Duetto/QM/Vibiemme, Brewtus etc.. will be near identical. The ownership experience is the thing that won't. A| key factor that may make SOME people change (and why I did), I won't go into on the forum, but it will be in my review.
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1stline
Senior Member
1stline
Joined: 24 Jan 2002
Posts: 491
Location: Freehold, NJ USA
Expertise: Professional

Espresso: Undisclosed
Grinder: Indisclosed
Vac Pot: Bodum Electric
Drip: None
Roaster: None
Posted Wed Jul 24, 2013, 2:01pm
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

cuznvin Said:

I do have a question though.. The boiler in the Technika is insulated and horizontal. you say the boiler wall is usually very hot and the water will evaporate because of this heat, but not if its insulated, correct?

Posted July 24, 2013 link

Sorry, you are right. I did confuse you. Again, my apologies.

To answer, the Technika has a higher grade vacuum breaker valve which is elevated, and this portion will get hot. To reiterate, there is very little water that comes out.

 
Sincerely,
Jim Piccinich
Business Partner
1st-line Equipment, LLC
www.1st-line.com

Follow us on Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/1stline
Twitter: http://twitter.com/1stline
Blog: http://1st-line.blogspot.com/
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/1stlineespresso
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germantownrob
Senior Member
germantownrob
Joined: 2 Dec 2007
Posts: 2,139
Location: Philadelphia
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Duetto 3, A Dead Oscar
Grinder: Vario-W, Preciso w/Esatto,...
Drip: Brazen
Roaster: Diedrich IR-1, HT B
Posted Wed Jul 24, 2013, 2:21pm
Subject: Re: Another DB Quickmill
 

That was me that toyed with the thought selling my Duetto 3 to someone here for a good deal and picking up the QM at CCS great deal, I would loose about $300 for the trade in. If I had not just been on a two week beach vacation I would consider it seriously but not really worth it ATM.

Overfilling the boiler. Well on my Duetto 3 I would get in from the top of the boiler and use a turkey blaster to fill to the top with hot solution, since I do not have a drain I would the siphon out the solution and repeat with fresh water multiple times to flush. With my Oscar I would simple fill the reservoir with solution after draining the boiler and pull the overfill switch so the machine would keep filling until the boiler is full. Worth noteing, this is how a created a leak in the boiler of the Oscar, I overfilled and left to heat for way to long, my over pressure safety failed and the pressure found another way out.
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