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Rocket HX doesn't need flush?
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Discussions > Espresso > Machines > Rocket HX...  
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calblacksmith
Moderator
calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 7,681
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Wed Jun 26, 2013, 2:21pm
Subject: Re: Rocket HX doesn't need flush?
 

JPizzzle Said:

and please understand

ALL MACHINES NEED A CLEANING FLUSH, EVERY SINGLE ONE, NO EXCEPTIONS

The flush is NOT temp surfing, the machine is VERY TEMP STABLE in use.

Do what you will, that is fine, I really don't care, it is your money, not mine, spend it any way you like but a cooling flush is not a big deal.

Posted June 26, 2013 link

Very true, all machines need to be flushed and 1 person's machine can differ greatly from anothers.  However, from my readings and research (and granted i'm still a newb), the flushing for a HX machine is significantly more than that for a DB.  A DB can use a quick 1oz or so flush to get things warmed up, but a HX will be more.  So this might not be an issue for someone who has the capabilities of plumbing in the water and out the drip tray, but it can be a headache for someone who does not have this option.  I'm currently deciding between a cellini evo 2 vs r58, and am leaning to the r58 for various reasons, but one being that I don't have to empty the drip tray all the time from cooling flushes.  Anyway, I think many can agree that a cooling flush on a HX is not the end of the world, and some do enjoy it, but that there is a higher level of convenience and less worry (plus having to install a thermostat which IMO takes away from the looks of a Rocket) when going with a quality DB.  IMO










One oz or three, is still quick, if three oz is significantly more then I guess it is.

Why waste the water into the drip tray regardless of machine design? Put it to use by letting it run into your cup to warm it. Dump the cup into the sink, nearly everyone has a sink close by, the result? Warm cup, no water into drip tray. Am I missing something here?

When i first got the machine I considered the thermostat, after using for a short time, I got over it and do just fine without it. That works out to $$ saved and the looks preserved. It really is not mandatory nor really needed at all, it is an aid to help you feel better.

Honestly, you are making it much more of a deal than it is. Without a PF, an oz is about 1 second so the flush is 1 second or 3 :O.  If you want to use it as a reason to justify the higher cost of a DB, go ahead, you have my blessing to buy whatever machine you want, they are all good in this price range and it is a matter of personal taste.

To get the best results from these machines, you need to step up the grinder too so don't go cheep there either, the grinder affects the shot more than the machine.

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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Sigma
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Joined: 2 Apr 2013
Posts: 33
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Wed Jun 26, 2013, 5:23pm
Subject: Re: Rocket HX doesn't need flush?
 

To get the best results from these machines, you need to step up the grinder too so don't go cheep there either, the grinder affects the shot more than the machine.

Yes, I'm just hoping my Preciso can keep up...
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dsblv
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Joined: 2 Dec 2006
Posts: 191
Location: Bellevue, WA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Rocket Giotto Evoluzione
Grinder: MACAP MC4
Posted Wed Jun 26, 2013, 5:52pm
Subject: Re: Rocket HX doesn't need flush?
 

Sigma Said:

Yes, I'm just hoping my Preciso can keep up...

Posted June 26, 2013 link

Probably not.   The burrs are too small and you'll probably get inconsistent results when pulling shots. The grinder is the most important part of the espresso process.  Why pair an outstanding quality espresso machine like a Rocket with an inadequate grinder?  The Vario is probably the bare bones minimum you should consider.  Grinders like the MACAP or a Mazzer Mini are a much better match for a prosumer machine.
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CMIN
Senior Member


Joined: 14 Jun 2012
Posts: 1,356
Location: South FL
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Crossland CC1
Grinder: Baratza Preciso
Posted Wed Jun 26, 2013, 6:11pm
Subject: Re: Rocket HX doesn't need flush?
 

dsblv Said:

Probably not.   The burrs are too small and you'll probably get inconsistent results when pulling shots. The grinder is the most important part of the espresso process.  Why pair an outstanding quality espresso machine like a Rocket with an inadequate grinder?  The Vario is probably the bare bones minimum you should consider.  Grinders like the MACAP or a Mazzer Mini are a much better match for a prosumer machine.

Posted June 26, 2013 link

huh, Preciso is  more than capable, plenty use it with expensive machines. Vario bare bones? Vario edges out your own grinder the Macap MC4 and Mazzer Mini by users of both on here and HB, along the lines of the Super Jolley. They may not have all metal construction but their more useable for home users and have almost 0 grinds retention. Friend has the Macap and Vario def has the edge for fluffier grinds and taste.

Can you do better, sure (applies to Macap and Mazzer as well, but its not like you won't be able to not pull shots with a Preciso all of a sudden.
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JPizzzle
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Joined: 3 Jun 2013
Posts: 11
Location: Philadelphia
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Thu Jun 27, 2013, 6:20am
Subject: Re: Rocket HX doesn't need flush?
 

"One oz or three, is still quick, if three oz is significantly more then I guess it is.

Why waste the water into the drip tray regardless of machine design? Put it to use by letting it run into your cup to warm it. Dump the cup into the sink, nearly everyone has a sink close by, the result? Warm cup, no water into drip tray. Am I missing something here?

When i first got the machine I considered the thermostat, after using for a short time, I got over it and do just fine without it. That works out to $$ saved and the looks preserved. It really is not mandatory nor really needed at all, it is an aid to help you feel better.

Honestly, you are making it much more of a deal than it is. Without a PF, an oz is about 1 second so the flush is 1 second or 3 :O.  If you want to use it as a reason to justify the higher cost of a DB, go ahead, you have my blessing to buy whatever machine you want, they are all good in this price range and it is a matter of personal taste.

To get the best results from these machines, you need to step up the grinder too so don't go cheep there either, the grinder affects the shot more than the machine."






Yes, certainly no harm or trouble to use it to heat a cup.  It's not a big deal, and certainly not why I "justify" buying a DB.   Like I previously said it's due to various other reasons, but having greater temperature control and stability is certainly one of them.  If your someone who wants to make sure the Espresso is brewing at a specific temperature, then Eric's thermometer is something that can be very helpful for a HX.    

Also, your making the assumption that it's a 1-3 sec flush, when many have reported a large variation in this in order to bring their machine down to temp.  Granted it may not be as long as the flush in the video of the person on youtube, but we can't assume that it will be less since each machine can vary.  Anyway, I have no desire to keep going back and forth, as there are many threads on whether flushing a HX is a hastle or not.  At the end of the day, to many, it's not a big deal or a deal breaker.

@dsblv-Don't know much about the preciso, but the Vario is certainly not "bare bones" as many on the forum have reviewed it and it has on many occasions out performed Mazzer Mini
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Sigma
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Joined: 2 Apr 2013
Posts: 33
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Thu Jun 27, 2013, 7:48am
Subject: Re: Rocket HX doesn't need flush?
 

I did not mean for this to become a HX v. DB debate!

Also, your making the assumption that it's a 1-3 sec flush, when many have reported a large variation in this in order to bring their machine down to temp.

This is my biggest concern. Since I cannot plumb in, using 3x more water is a logistical concern, and something I'm trying to quantify. Thus my interest in how much flush is required.

@dsblv-Don't know much about the preciso, but the Vario is certainly not "bare bones" as many on the forum have reviewed it and it has on many occasions out performed Mazzer Mini

This is my understanding. From what I've read the preciso is *almost* as good as the Vario.
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calblacksmith
Moderator
calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 7,681
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Thu Jun 27, 2013, 10:36am
Subject: Re: Rocket HX doesn't need flush?
 

The thermometer is not needed as much as a lot of folks make it out to be, it isn't that critical to be all that close.
A little practice with your machine and you will be getting it spot on in no time, by taste not a number and that is what counts, the taste.

Just about every machine needs a little tuning by the owner out of the box. I have several HX machines and all of them are in the 3 or so second range, three oz of water when you have a minimum of 1 L water tank is not going to make you run out of water before you are done making shots. The machines are semi commercial and commercial.

A personal view of mine is that the fear of the unfamiliar is what causes so much furor over a cooling flush.

OH my GOODNESS, how am I ever going to know what is the right temp? A readout will tell me but how else will I know?

The "hand" of the barista not high tech is what makes or breaks the shot.

As I have said many times, I don't care what you buy, and I honestly mean that. However I do become a little frustrated when a simple thing is blown all out of scale.

A SBDU machine can make OUTSTANDING shots, a $10K computer guided wizz bang, actively heated group, PID controlled techno powerhouse of a machine can turn out garbage shots. The man, the hand, the skill of the operator is what counts.

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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calblacksmith
Moderator
calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 7,681
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Thu Jun 27, 2013, 10:58am
Subject: Re: Rocket HX doesn't need flush?
 

Oh, another personal view, as good as the Precicso and Vario are, when you get into this class of machine, they are not good enough. I know there are members who take exception to that statement and they are entitled to feel any way they like but there are better grinders out there and when the grinder is more important than the machine and the machine is $2K a $400 grinder will show it's weakness quite readily when a better grinder is used. YMMV!

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
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CMIN
Senior Member


Joined: 14 Jun 2012
Posts: 1,356
Location: South FL
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Crossland CC1
Grinder: Baratza Preciso
Posted Thu Jun 27, 2013, 11:43am
Subject: Re: Rocket HX doesn't need flush?
 

calblacksmith Said:

Oh, another personal view, as good as the Precicso and Vario are, when you get into this class of machine, they are not good enough. I know there are members who take exception to that statement and they are entitled to feel any way they like but there are better grinders out there and when the grinder is more important than the machine and the machine is $2K a $400 grinder will show it's weakness quite readily when a better grinder is used. YMMV!

Posted June 27, 2013 link

Gotta disagree with this, no offense meant towards you. My buddy has a vario and Macap (MC4 I mentioned). Vario wins in the cup on his Duetto 3 for taste, not like night and day but can still tell a slight difference. Fluffier grinds/less clumping, little retention, can easily single dose etc. Which goes with what almost every user on here and HB of both or similar lines (like the Mazzer Mini) have said giving the win to the Vario, I mean almost every single one puts it basically even with a Super Jolley as far as taste in the cup. so how does a grinder magically become inferior on these machines winning against other grinders that then magically become better on these same machines??? Sure their metal, but that doesn't do anything as far as results in the cup. Only reason he bought the Macap is well, it's a Macap, it's metal, he was told it's better b/c again it's a Macap it has to be blah blah, only to find out the Vario still had the edge, so the Macap is in his office now vs home where the Vario is used way more. Sure the Preciso is bare minimum for espresso, can still pull a shot on high end machines as others have show, obviously it won't be as good as the larger/better burr machines though. Even I personally wish I went with the Vario but snagged a deal on the Preciso couldn't pass up.

But by that logic of the Vario being inferior why bother with anything but say a K10, or HG-One, or Mazzer Robur etc since the Vario outperforms other more expensive grinders that it competes with?? I mean if the Vario is inferior, then that means the MC4, or Mini, or Compak K3 (since the Vario is called even with the K6) and others are more inferior? We know that's not true since they still can pull great shots.
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dsblv
Senior Member


Joined: 2 Dec 2006
Posts: 191
Location: Bellevue, WA
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Rocket Giotto Evoluzione
Grinder: MACAP MC4
Posted Thu Jun 27, 2013, 1:26pm
Subject: Re: Rocket HX doesn't need flush?
 

The comment on the Vario wasn't meant to be taken personally.  The fact is that grinders with larger burrs and stepless adjustments will usually deliver the best performance.   That doesn't diminish what Baratza has achieved with their Vario model. There are just better grinders out there when using a prosumer machine.
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