Our Valued Sponsor
OpinionsConsumer ReviewsGuides and How TosCoffeeGeek ReviewsResourcesForums
Espresso: Espresso Machines
Rocket HX doesn't need flush?
Commercial Equipment
Nuova Simonelli, La Marzocco, Rancilio. Nationwide installation. Instant financing options.
www.seattlecoffeegear.com
 
Not Logged in: Log In to Postlog in
New Topics updated topics   New Posts new posts   Unanswered Posts new unanswered  
Search Discussion Board search   Discussion Board FAQ faq   Signup sign up  
Discussions > Espresso > Machines > Rocket HX...  
view previous topic | view next topic | view all topics
showing page 4 of 4 first page previous page
Author Messages
CMIN
Senior Member


Joined: 14 Jun 2012
Posts: 1,498
Location: South FL
Expertise: I like coffee

Espresso: Crossland CC1
Grinder: Baratza Preciso
Posted Thu Jun 27, 2013, 12:43pm
Subject: Re: Rocket HX doesn't need flush?
 

dsblv Said:

The comment on the Vario wasn't meant to be taken personally.  The fact is that grinders with larger burrs and stepless adjustments will usually deliver the best performance.   That doesn't diminish what Baratza has achieved with their Vario model. There are just better grinders out there when using a prosumer machine.

Posted June 27, 2013 link

Oh it's not personal, just don't see how the Vario isn't capable. It ouperforms the Macap MC4 that you have and a friend owns as well (owns the vario too) on his Duetto III (which is a prosumer correct?), the Mazzer Mini, compaks and others from people testing over the years on all kindsa of machines from low end to prosumer to commercial. That would mean those grinders are even more incapable on prosumer machines since the Vario outperforms, however that's not true as those other grinders can still pull excellent shots. The only ones really smacking it would be the large Roburs, K10, or even the HG-One and similar large burrs etc... but then that would go for all machines as no doubt those are kick ass grinders but not everyone can afford certain ones nor want some massive beast that can't/barely fit in normal kitchens or dealing with their retention quirks even when modded (save for the HG).. that's not taking away that they kick ass though as no doubt they do. Preciso can still pull shots on more expensive machines, I mean we used mine and his Vario to compare on the Duetto. it's not like your gonna be getting gushing extractions all of a sudden. Def not saying the Preciso is the best though by far, as I wish I got the Vario instead just b/c I like flat burrs taste better. But you'll still be able to pull shots till you can upgrade down the road.
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
calblacksmith
Moderator
calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 8,025
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Thu Jun 27, 2013, 12:55pm
Subject: Re: Rocket HX doesn't need flush?
 

I didn't say it wasn't capable, I said that better grinder will do better for you and at this level you will notice the difference much more consistently.  I never mentioned ANY grinder by name as being better, just stated that the entry level espresso grinder will come up short when compared to better grinders and at this level of machine, you will more consistently see the difference.

I have held the Vario in my hands but never ground with it. I never said that I did. I have taken the word of members that I trust such as Jason that it was a quality unit in the cup. I have no reason to doubt that BUT it still remains as one of the best ENTRY level grinders. I do not have the intention of offending anyone and I don't see any argument with the statement either.

If you are serious enough to invest that much money in a machine, you should have no issue with investing in a better grinder too! YMMV!

EDIT, BTW, I would say the same thing about the mini and it's equals too.

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
back to top
 View Profile Visit website Link to this post
Sigma
Senior Member


Joined: 2 Apr 2013
Posts: 33
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Thu Jun 27, 2013, 2:03pm
Subject: Re: Rocket HX doesn't need flush?
 

If you are serious enough to invest that much money in a machine, you should have no issue with investing in a better grinder too! YMMV!

Agreed. That upgrade is a couples years out though. Probably will grab a Vario in 6mo, then save up for something in the K10 range.
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
DavecUK
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Posts: 1,466
Location: UK
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Thu Jun 27, 2013, 6:05pm
Subject: Re: Rocket HX doesn't need flush?
 

Sigma Said:

Reading here
Click Here (coffeesnobs.com.au)
it is suggested that the new Rocket HXs do not need a cooling flush, or very little (2oz), due to their thermosyphon restrictor.

Is this really true? Is the temperature management that straightforward?

Posted June 25, 2013 link

No it's not true. It will need a flush, perhaps smaller, but it will need one. Also having a thermosyphon restriction that's too restrictive is not really a great design decision for an HX and will actually give poorer temperature stability. This is another example of the manufacturers catering to consumer perception and not shot quality. They want to try and market their machine and don't care how. One of the better ways is have "some" thermosyphon restriction, but use the largest boiler you can. 2 litres and above is better, oddly enough if the boiler is quite large a vertical orientation would probably work better. This allows you to keep the overall temperature lower, whilst still getting decent steaming. In the case of a large vertical boiler (e.g. 2.5 litre), you could probably keep the boiler pressure at around 1.0 - 1.1  bar, a good 2C or more cooler than usual, this will help quite a bit when using moderate thermosyphon restriction.
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
Freddo58
Senior Member


Joined: 16 May 2013
Posts: 36
Location: New Zealand
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Thu Jun 27, 2013, 9:46pm
Subject: Re: Rocket HX doesn't need flush?
 

DavecUK Said:

No it's not true. It will need a flush, perhaps smaller, but it will need one. Also having a thermosyphon restriction that's too restrictive is not really a great design decision for an HX and will actually give poorer temperature stability. This is another example of the manufacturers catering to consumer perception and not shot quality. They want to try and market their machine and don't care how. One of the better ways is have "some" thermosyphon restriction, but use the largest boiler you can. 2 litres and above is better, oddly enough if the boiler is quite large a vertical orientation would probably work better. This allows you to keep the overall temperature lower, whilst still getting decent steaming. In the case of a large vertical boiler (e.g. 2.5 litre), you could probably keep the boiler pressure at around 1.0 - 1.1  bar, a good 2C or more cooler than usual, this will help quite a bit when using moderate thermosyphon restriction.

Posted June 27, 2013 link

The design is around optimizing what can be worked within practical constraints - to suit the target market.
No point whacking a huge commercial sized boiler in a domestic machine, if the element can't keep up so that rebound time is much  longer.  No point building a machine with massive element if you can't plug it in most kitchens.
Average 1 bar (boiler cut out at 1.1) is typical default setting of machines anyway.  People blindly following suggestions common on the 'net that you need more for "adequate steaming" with machines, and that is probably behind a few problems.  Not saying don;t do it - just that if you do it, know why, and know the implications.
Vertical vs horizontal boiler - the whole thing has to fit in a manageable sized box, with the boiler in a position that a 2/3 full boiler thermosyphon system still works.  Despite an apparently achievable premium for fit and finish and general design and construction for the Rocket machines, cost will also be a constraint.
Of course it will still need a flush.  Note that the posted link on the Aussie forum where a re-seller of the machines claimed to offer a modification eliminating the need to flush is now a "404".  There's probably a good reason for that.
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
DavecUK
Senior Member


Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Posts: 1,466
Location: UK
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Fri Jun 28, 2013, 12:59am
Subject: Re: Rocket HX doesn't need flush?
 

Freddo58 Said:

The design is around optimizing what can be worked within practical constraints - to suit the target market.
No point whacking a huge commercial sized boiler in a domestic machine, if the element can't keep up so that rebound time is much  longer.  No point building a machine with massive element if you can't plug it in most kitchens.
Average 1 bar (boiler cut out at 1.1) is typical default setting of machines anyway.  People blindly following suggestions common on the 'net that you need more for "adequate steaming" with machines, and that is probably behind a few problems.  Not saying don;t do it - just that if you do it, know why, and know the implications.
Vertical vs horizontal boiler - the whole thing has to fit in a manageable sized box, with the boiler in a position that a 2/3 full boiler thermosyphon system still works.

Posted June 27, 2013 link

2 or 2.5 litres is not really a commercial sized boiler The difference in diameter between a 1.5l (normal size) and 2.5 l boiler is only about 3cm. I also made no reference to using a larger heating element....1400-1500W would be quite adequate, it wouldn't need to be any larger than normal. The typical default settings of machines is not 1.1 bar, that's too low for most of the prosumer stuff on the market. Lastly a vertical boiler is a lot easier to fit in a manageable sized box. This doesn't mean a horizontal boiler of 2.5 litres would be huge, it would still be just a few cm extra in diameter.

I do know the implications of design decisions in these machines....I might even understand them a lot more than you think I do. Perhaps if you do a little more research, evaluate and test more machines, work with a few of the manufacturers, get a little more involved in the design of these machines, then deal with the manufacturers and their engineers, your views will change. I suspect you are speaking from the position of knowledgeable consumer....having gained a lot of that knowledge from forums, rather than practical experience.
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
Freddo58
Senior Member


Joined: 16 May 2013
Posts: 36
Location: New Zealand
Expertise: Just starting

Posted Fri Jun 28, 2013, 2:05am
Subject: Re: Rocket HX doesn't need flush?
 

DavecUK Said:

2 or 2.5 litres is not really a commercial sized boiler The difference in diameter between a 1.5l (normal size) and 2.5 l boiler is only about 3cm. I also made no reference to using a larger heating element....1400-1500W would be quite adequate, it wouldn't need to be any larger than normal. The typical default settings of machines is not 1.1 bar, that's too low for most of the prosumer stuff on the market. Lastly a vertical boiler is a lot easier to fit in a manageable sized box. This doesn't mean a horizontal boiler of 2.5 litres would be huge, it would still be just a few cm extra in diameter.

I do know the implications of design decisions in these machines....I might even understand them a lot more than you think I do. Perhaps if you do a little more research, evaluate and test more machines, work with a few of the manufacturers, get a little more involved in the design of these machines, then deal with the manufacturers and their engineers, your views will change. I suspect you are speaking from the position of knowledgeable consumer....having gained a lot of that knowledge from forums, rather than practical experience.

Posted June 28, 2013 link

I actually don't care too much for your tone there, as there's a suggestion that you consider that you know much more about the design of HX espresso machines than the manufacturers who have been making and refining them for 1/2 century do.
If you are to have me (or anybody else) believe that they're all idiots, then at least I'm not buying the bridge you're trying to sell.  
Sorry - but you're expressing opinion - it clearly ain't the same as mine.  No need to try to "pull rank" to try and prove something. End of story.

Cheers.
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
CoffeeRon
Senior Member


Joined: 26 Apr 2009
Posts: 758
Location: Eatonville, Wa
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Wega Lyra, Europiccola(still...
Grinder: Macap M7D, Pharos, Vario W,...
Vac Pot: Sunbeam CoffeeMaster
Drip: Melita BCM-4
Roaster: FR SR500,B-1600, SC/TO
Posted Fri Jun 28, 2013, 4:07am
Subject: Re: Rocket HX doesn't need flush?
 

Freddo58 Said:

I actually don't care too much for your tone there, as there's a suggestion that you consider that you know much more about the design of HX espresso machines than the manufacturers who have been making and refining them for 1/2 century do.
If you are to have me (or anybody else) believe that they're all idiots, then at least I'm not buying the bridge you're trying to sell.  
Sorry - but you're expressing opinion - it clearly ain't the same as mine.  No need to try to "pull rank" to try and prove something. End of story.

Cheers.

Posted June 28, 2013 link

I would suggest you look into DaveUK a bit more before forming opinions. He's far more involved in the manufacturing end of espresso machines than you know.
back to top
 View Profile Link to this post
calblacksmith
Moderator
calblacksmith
Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 8,025
Location: Riverside, Ca, U.S.A.
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: ECM Vene. A1, La Cimbali M32
Grinder: Azkoyen Capriccio, Major
Vac Pot: 40s era Silex
Drip: Msl. Com. brewers
Roaster: gave it a try, decided no
Posted Fri Jun 28, 2013, 4:40am
Subject: Re: Rocket HX doesn't need flush?
 

DavecUK Said:

2 or 2.5 litres is not really a commercial sized boiler The difference in diameter between a 1.5l (normal size) and 2.5 l boiler is only about 3cm. I also made no reference to using a larger heating element....1400-1500W would be quite adequate, it wouldn't need to be any larger than normal. The typical default settings of machines is not 1.1 bar, that's too low for most of the prosumer stuff on the market. Lastly a vertical boiler is a lot easier to fit in a manageable sized box. This doesn't mean a horizontal boiler of 2.5 litres would be huge, it would still be just a few cm extra in diameter.

I do know the implications of design decisions in these machines....I might even understand them a lot more than you think I do. Perhaps if you do a little more research, evaluate and test more machines, work with a few of the manufacturers, get a little more involved in the design of these machines, then deal with the manufacturers and their engineers, your views will change. I suspect you are speaking from the position of knowledgeable consumer....having gained a lot of that knowledge from forums, rather than practical experience.

Posted June 28, 2013 link

Well said, there is nothing I can disagree with.
There is no reason that a 2.5 L boiler can not be maintained properly with a heater that operates on 110v 15 amp. I can prove this as this is exactly what I have, a 2.5l boiler and it is running on a 110v 20 amp circuit though the machine does not draw more than 15 amps. I do have grinder etc running on the line also and have never had a problem either with maintaining the pressure and temp in the machine or with overloading the circuit.I have a horizontal boiler and as you said, it is not huge. As well, my machine is running on 1.2 bar of pressure. I have a reasonable apx 3 oz flush to bring to temp and I never run out of steam. The heat cycle does not get out of normal either, as soon as the pressure drops a little when the steam valve is opened, the heater kicks in and pressure is maintained while the boiler keeps a constant temp.

 
In real life, my name is
Wayne P.
Anything I post is personal opinion and is only worth as much as anyone else's personal opinion. YMMV!

Feed the newbs, starve the trolls and above all enjoy what you drink!
back to top
 View Profile Visit website Link to this post
showing page 4 of 4 first page previous page
view previous topic | view next topic | view all topics
Discussions > Espresso > Machines > Rocket HX...  
New Topics updated topics   New Posts new posts   Unanswered Posts new unanswered     Search Discussion Board search   Discussion Board FAQ faq   Signup sign up  
Not Logged in: Log In to Postlog in
Discussions Quick Jump:
Symbols: New Posts= New Posts since your last visit      No New Posts= No New Posts since last visit     Go to most recent post= Newest post
Forum Rules:
No profanity, illegal acts or personal attacks will be tolerated in these discussion boards.
No commercial posting of any nature will be tolerated; only private sales by private individuals, in the "Buy and Sell" forum.
No SEO style postings will be tolerated. SEO related posts will result in immediate ban from CoffeeGeek.
No cross posting allowed - do not post your topic to more than one forum, nor repost a topic to the same forum.
Who Can Read The Forum? Anyone can read posts in these discussion boards.
Who Can Post New Topics? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post new topics.
Who Can Post Replies? Any registered CoffeeGeek member can post replies.
Can Photos be posted? Anyone can post photos in their new topics or replies.
Who can change or delete posts? Any CoffeeGeek member can edit their own posts. Only moderators can delete posts.
Probationary Period: If you are a new signup for CoffeeGeek, you cannot promote, endorse, criticise or otherwise post an unsolicited endorsement for any company, product or service in your first five postings.
Home Espresso Machines
Watch videos with Gail & Kat, Rocket, Jura Capresso, Saeco, Rancilio, Quick Mill, Nespresso
www.seattlecoffeegear.com
Home | Opinions | Consumer Reviews | Guides & How Tos | CoffeeGeek Reviews | Resources | Forums | Contact Us
CoffeeGeek.com, CoffeeGeek, and Coffee Geek, along with all associated content & images are copyright ©2000-2014 by Mark Prince, all rights reserved, unless otherwise indicated. Content, code, and images may not be reused without permission. Usage of this website signifies agreement with our Terms and Conditions. (0.481370925903)
Privacy Policy | Copyright Info | Terms and Conditions | CoffeeGeek Advertisers | RSS | Find us on Google+