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Collaborative Coffee Machine Prototype Design
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ChaChaMan
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Joined: 20 Jun 2013
Posts: 12
Location: Montreal
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Fri Jun 21, 2013, 7:09pm
Subject: Collaborative Coffee Machine Prototype Design
 

If we all collaborated  our inputs to design a coffee machine, I would be willing to build the prototype and to distrubute the plans. Any takers ?
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qualin
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qualin
Joined: 30 Jun 2012
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Location: Calgary, AB
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Izzo Alex Duetto 3
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Drip: Manual
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Posted Fri Jun 21, 2013, 8:53pm
Subject: Re: Collaborative Coffee Machine Prototype Design
 

Do you own any machines right now?

 
Garbage In, Garbage Out, for every step of the process. From Beans to grinder, grounds to machine, coffee to cup.
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CoffeeRoastersClub
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CoffeeRoastersClub
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Espresso: Vintage La Pavoni Lever...
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Posted Fri Jun 21, 2013, 9:14pm
Subject: Re: Collaborative Coffee Machine Prototype Design
 

ChaChaMan Said:

If we all collaborated  our inputs to design a coffee machine, I would be willing to build the prototype and to distrubute the plans. Any takers ?

Posted June 21, 2013 link

You are a newbie with this one out of the blue post.  Your question reminds me of the aphorism about Greeks (or is it CoffeeGeeks?) bearing gifts.  

Sorry for the negativity, just my gut reaction.

Len

 
"Coffee leads men to trifle away their time, scald their chops, and spend their money, all for a little base, black, thick, nasty, bitter, stinking nauseous puddle water." ~The Women's Petition Against Coffee, 1674

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ChaChaMan
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Joined: 20 Jun 2013
Posts: 12
Location: Montreal
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Sat Jun 22, 2013, 7:50am
Subject: Re: Collaborative Coffee Machine Prototype Design
 

...here is something to start the discussion :

The first generation of machine would be a simple manual machine. Nevertheless, the aim is to include all the features to ensure the barista has all the controls he requires to make the best brew possible.

Kettle or boiler : To be elaborated

Dosing Chamber : The cylinder would be loaded with hot water and then driven out  by way of a  piston actuated  by a manual lever.

Plenum Chamber : In this chamber, water that is driven out of the Dosing Chamber is  distributed over the coffee cake. In this chamber there would be 2 sensors for temperature and pressure. These values would be displayed on dial gauges. The objective would be to maintain 195F and 9 bar (130psi) in this chamber throughout the pull.

Brewing Chamber : Contains ground, tamped coffee cake. Water is driven through this chamber in a manner such that the proper brewing water temperature and pressures can be controlled. The Coffee is funneled to the cup.

Auxiliary Systems: A hot water circulation loop to keep the chambers warm so as to ensure a hot enough brew.

ChaChaMan: pallSPREMA2.jpg
(Click for larger image)
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frcn
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frcn
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Posted Sat Jun 22, 2013, 8:32am
Subject: Re: Collaborative Coffee Machine Prototype Design
 

Seems to be a very naive approach from you post. What you have stated are all well-known basics, like saying, "I want to build a car with your help. it will have four wheels, one at each corner, a round device inside connected to the front wheels to make them move together at user-selected angles for directional control, and a motor for propulsion."  

Beyond that, If I had the resources to build my own espresso machine I would create my own design. I terms of a lever machine, I would also likely purchase a complete group since dealing with trying to design and spec seals and valving and such in a one-off design would be more trouble than it was worth.

 
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ChaChaMan
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Joined: 20 Jun 2013
Posts: 12
Location: Montreal
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Sat Jun 22, 2013, 8:51am
Subject: Re: Collaborative Coffee Machine Prototype Design
 

If we don't design our group, then we are mere integrators assembling other peoples components.

I think the before doing any detail designing, we should collect all the inputs.

So let's have your inputs - Shoot !
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SStones
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Posted Sat Jun 22, 2013, 11:38am
Subject: Re: Collaborative Coffee Machine Prototype Design
 

So you want to monitor pressure right at the top of the brew chamber, in a lever machine, throughout the operating stroke. Instead of a cross-drilled shaft connecting the piston to the lever, you could use a hollow tube with a trunnion at the lever rather than a pin. That way your pressure gauge could sit at the top of the shaft constantly reading the exact pressure above your grounds. It may be subject to clogging if not cleaned often. The thermometer could be right there, also, though mounting it on the brass outer wall of the cylinder around the brew chamber could seem more traditional.
So there. You have a Pavoni with a hollow shaft and gauges mounted.
Now you provide an idea.
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ChaChaMan
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Joined: 20 Jun 2013
Posts: 12
Location: Montreal
Expertise: I love coffee

Posted Sat Jun 22, 2013, 1:15pm
Subject: Re: Collaborative Coffee Machine Prototype Design
 

If I understood your input, you are suggesting  a temperature sensor in the Dosage Chamber (Cylinder and piston device drawing and expelling the dose of water). Wouldn't you want to read your pressure and temp as close to the brew chamber as possible - therefor in the Plenum chamber? This is the chamber immediately before the brewing chamber.
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qualin
Senior Member
qualin
Joined: 30 Jun 2012
Posts: 653
Location: Calgary, AB
Expertise: I love coffee

Espresso: Izzo Alex Duetto 3
Grinder: Mazzer Mini Elect. Type A
Vac Pot: Looking to buy
Drip: Manual
Roaster: Considering?
Posted Sat Jun 22, 2013, 6:34pm
Subject: Re: Collaborative Coffee Machine Prototype Design
 

Take everything I say with a grain of salt here....

You know, if I was designing an espresso machine, I would skip the 1930's era technology and aim a bit higher.

Bosch has already perfected the spring-loaded manual lever and Gaggia invented it, so I don't see any point to reinventing the wheel.
Why design and build another Londinium? Even if it had metered pressure control, it's pointless on a manual machine, IMO.  

I'd first look at the market and notice that saturated group head machines are usually too expensive for most consumers, with entry level
saturated grouphead machines starting in around the $6k mark. (ie. La Marzocco GS/3)

So, rather than reinventing the wheel, I'd consider designing a saturated group head which has the ability of thermosyphoning from the boiler,
kind of like a different take on the La Marzocco saturated group, but borrowing a lot of the concepts without violating patents.

Then, I would figure out a way how to design a cost effective machine which could compete on the terms of the GS/3, but cost approximately
$3000 less, probably by eliminating a lot of the customized electronics and sticking with conventional Gicar components for the boiler auto-fill,
PID, etc. This would keep the costs down considerably and make the machine easier to service. A manual switchable tank/plumbing valve and a
Procon rotary pump are absolutely mandatory and could be situated above or below the boilers. It would have to be a semi-auto machine.

In order to keep the footprint of the machine smaller, I'd utilize two horizontal D-shaped boilers, one for steam and one for brewing and aim for the largest
capacities I could fit into a kitchen friendly footprint, Steam boiler on the bottom and insulated, brew boiler ontop with the brew group attached to it. The
idea being is that the size of the boilers could be maximized into a small footprint, while shortening the tubing between the boilers. There would have to
be a line from the steam boiler up to the cup tray to warm the cups, like in the old GS/1's.

Of course, I'd aim for a lot of the features my current machine has, such as a vacuum breaker valve with a tube leading to the drip tray, a large drip tray,
a long flexible steam wand and hot water wand leading back to joysticks instead of knobs and of course, the two pressure gauges.

I would think that a prosumer/low-volume professional machine aiming for somewhere around the $2500-$3000 mark would be the most business viable
machine for the espresso machine market, but I'd aim for competing directly against the GS/3 IMO.

Now, in saying that, I'm not an engineer, not by a longshot.. Building out a prototype is going to be quite expensive and is going to have its errors. I'm no
mechanic either. I couldn't build an espresso machine if I tried, but I can at least put forward a viewpoint!

In saying that, look at what Salvatore did. They designed a double boiler machine using an E61 group and Gicar components from scratch and they're
selling it for $5500-ish, so I have my doubts that even if they can't undercut Izzo, that it's possible to keep a machine like this under that cost.

 
Garbage In, Garbage Out, for every step of the process. From Beans to grinder, grounds to machine, coffee to cup.
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GVDub
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Joined: 25 Jan 2008
Posts: 849
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Expertise: I live coffee

Espresso: Londinium I, Arrarex...
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Roaster: Behmor 1600
Posted Sat Jun 22, 2013, 6:46pm
Subject: Re: Collaborative Coffee Machine Prototype Design
 

Look at the patents for the old VAM/Arrarex Caravel, add sensors and a separate pressurized boiler for steam. Use stainless open boiler with a magnetic steel core at the bottom so you can use induction heating for the brew boiler. You could enlarge the water jacket around the piston so it's a little more of a heated group than it already is. Dual PID for temp control of brew and steam boilers.

I'll even help out with the patent numbers:


United States Patent 2,925,027

United States Patent D182,853

Long expired, so they're freely available.
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